ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please  (Read 1952 times)

Danny Reid

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5

First in all of the pro audio forums it's the same , 100+ views and VERY little help , C'mon if you can help a bit by shedding some light for someone please don't pass us by . Now my ? I know most of the 600mhz is gonna be prohibited in 2020. OK , my ? is what do you do with the units that you have on that band? are they paperweights ? What happens if we just continue to use them ? Will the imperial storm troopers come and haul us away with our IEM's hanging from our ears ? I have heard that if you live in bigger cities interference may be much more that in smaller cities .Also it seems that there is a SMALL portion of the 600mhz that will remain open , what if your device can use those Freq. ? Will that work ? . Please , If you know anything on this subject , share the knowledge ,,Thanks
Logged

Riley Casey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1541
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2019, 11:19:00 am »

Sell them to users in countries that permit 600 Mhz operation for wireless mics is a popular course of action.  The storm troopers are unlikely to come for you but it's actually worse than that.  The lawyers will come for you if you show up in some scan as interfering with bandwidth that some mega-corp paid millions for.

Geert Friedhof

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 653
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2019, 11:20:05 am »

Forgive me my ignorance.

I am probably one of those 100+ First readers not helping you. And that is because i don't have a good answer for you. But i can only know that because i read your opening post. Now, if the topic title had made any sense i might not have read it...

So now i am giving you an answer which doesn't help you very much, but at least it is something.

Real world enough?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 11:25:51 am by Geert Friedhof »
Logged

Dave Pluke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1157
    • BIGG GRIN Productions
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2019, 11:30:24 am »

Also it seems that there is a SMALL portion of the 600mhz that will remain open , what if your device can use those Freq. ? Will that work ?

Provided that device does NOT have the capability of also performing in the "illegal" 600Mhz frequencies, yes.  Not that is ISN'T operating - that it CAN'T operate.  I don't make the rules - I just 'splain 'em.

Otherwise, what Riley said.

Manufacturers had been offering attractive trade-in deals toward U.S. compliant gear.  If one has missed that boat, sell it offshore.

Dave


Logged
...an analog man in a digital world [tm]

Flying direct to nearly everywhere out of ATL

Don T. Williams

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 851
  • Midas Pro 1 & 2, M32, dbTech T12, T8, S30, DM12
    • Q Systems Music & Sound
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2019, 11:39:34 am »

Danny, one of the reasons that I, and probably others that read the forum, don't answer every post is that I don't know all the answers.  We are all trying to learn more about live audio.  For you, I think the answers fully cover your technical question.  I hope this helps for the rest of your question.
Logged

Russell Ault

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 786
  • Edmonton, AB
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2019, 12:44:35 pm »

[..] what do you do with the units that you have on that band? are they paperweights ? What happens if we just continue to use them ? Will the imperial storm troopers come and haul us away with our IEM's hanging from our ears ? [...] Also it seems that there is a SMALL portion of the 600mhz that will remain open , what if your device can use those Freq. ? [...]

For what it's worth, this is a topic that comes up every so often in the Wireless section of this forum; the most recently posted thread there is "Disposing of Audio Technica D band (650-680) gear", which addresses part of your question directly.

The Internet is also full of articles from reputable sources that answer all of these questions in detail. The summarized version of them is:
  • Using wireless equipment on illegal frequencies will be highly unreliable and can expose you to significant fines or even criminal prosecution.
  • A very small amount of spectrum will be available in the middle of the 600 MHz band called the "duplex gap", but half of this will be reserved for licensed users only, and the maximum power output you can legally use in the duplex gap is much lower than what we've been accustomed to using, so only wireless microphones specifically designed (or modified by the manufacturer, as Shure has done for some UHF-R equipment) for duplex gap use can be operated there legally.
-Russ
Logged

drew gandy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 320
  • Chicago and burbs
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2019, 04:25:25 pm »

Riley gave you a good answer.  I'll sum it up in a little different way:

A) Paperweight.  Let it remind you of the good times you used to have.

B) Utilize a trade-in program by the manufacturer to buy something new that operates in a band that is less likely to be illegal/problematic.  I find the trade-in idea to be more attractive if you have a large inventory than just one or two systems but it might be better than nothing.

C) Sell it into another part of the world. 

D) Leave it somewhere such that your enemies will find it and perform illegal actions. 

E) Continue to use it and face the consequences.  Many choose to drive over the speed limit despite the consequences (higher risk of injury or death, vehicle loss, financial penalties and/or license revocation).  You too can play this game.  Our storm troopers are busy doing other things so you're not likely to be hauled off.  But you may find that you:  1) will be fined or face a lawsuit, 2) will interrupt someone else's services (phone calls, pokemon Go, emergency services), 3) will get so much interference that your device is unusable. 
Logged
Arrogance is usually far worse than ignorance. But every once in awhile they swap places.

Scott Helmke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1622
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2019, 04:56:30 pm »

  • A very small amount of spectrum will be available in the middle of the 600 MHz band called the "duplex gap", but half of this will be reserved for licensed users only, and the maximum power output you can legally use in the duplex gap is much lower than what we've been accustomed to using, so only wireless microphones specifically designed (or modified by the manufacturer, as Shure has done for some UHF-R equipment) for duplex gap use can be operated there legally.

More to the point, a whole lot of people clinging to their 600MHz gear are going to try to fit into that gap. Results are likely to be poor as a result.
Logged

Kevin Maxwell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1347
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2019, 06:17:30 pm »

More to the point, a whole lot of people clinging to their 600MHz gear are going to try to fit into that gap. Results are likely to be poor as a result.

How many times are you in an environment where other wireless mics and IEM systems are competing with you for the same bandwidth?

Years ago I was working a big convention at a large hotel at Disney World. I discovered that some how 2 wireless systems were tuned to the exact same frequencies. I don't remember how I found this out because they weren't interfering with each other because they were far enough apart in that facility. 
Logged

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6066
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2019, 06:21:07 pm »

More to the point, a whole lot of people clinging to their 600MHz gear are going to try to fit into that gap. Results are likely to be poor as a result.

If you search the wireless forum you will find a link to a map of the US and turn up dates for the 600Mhz cellular license.  My market (Cleveland OH) just started coming up and it is already busy and essentially unusable. 

Do you really want to be doing a wedding gig and in the middle of the groom's drunkalog the mic cuts out?

The reason you are getting a combination of BS and snark (and a few tidbits of wisdom) is the following:

1 - This forum especially has very high expectations of users, that certainly includes and intelligent subject, you failed out of the gate on that one.

2 - If you hang out in the wireless forum you will see some of the top RF engineers in the country on the highest earining arena tours actually take the time to answer questions.  To be able to tap that resource, to me, is frankly humbling.  It's the same in the audio forum but the RF forum in here is truly a special place.

3 - Your question was not one seeking knowledge.  You outright asked for emotional validation if you can get away with breaking the law. 

4 - The way you are approaching this makes my guess you are probably a musician in the band or a sound guy for a cover band or other type of local production that plays in bars and other makeshift venues.

RF is one area you just can't cheap out with and get any results. 

Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

frank kayser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1543
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2019, 06:45:40 pm »

First in all of the pro audio forums it's the same , 100+ views and VERY little help , C'mon if you can help a bit by shedding some light for someone please don't pass us by . Now my ? I know most of the 600mhz is gonna be prohibited in 2020. OK , my ? is what do you do with the units that you have on that band? are they paperweights ? What happens if we just continue to use them ? Will the imperial storm troopers come and haul us away with our IEM's hanging from our ears ? I have heard that if you live in bigger cities interference may be much more that in smaller cities .Also it seems that there is a SMALL portion of the 600mhz that will remain open , what if your device can use those Freq. ? Will that work ? . Please , If you know anything on this subject , share the knowledge ,,Thanks


Unfortunately, there is very little help to be had with that equipment.  Neither you nor I was asked if it would be OK to sell off those frequencies.  However, as unlicensed transmitter operators, we were much like squatters there - using it as long as "no one owned it".  The new owner wants to make money with his bright, shiny new purchase.  Yeah, anyone with equipment in the 600mhz band is taking a financial bath.  I have a friend with around 8 channels with al the supporting equipment, and the manufacturer is basically offering $75/channel towards new equipment. That's about $600 for over $8K of perfectly good radio equipment that he would normally have to replace.  No crystal ball when he purchased; just a bad guess.


Rilely Casey has all the correct answers in the first response post. 


Following the rule of law is always optional.  Speed, and hope there's no RADAR, or someone watching. Hope you don't get into an at-fault accident where speed was a factor.  Fine as long as someone don't come a-knockin'.


Insider trading makes few folks lots of money, and no one knows, until they do.  Then they pay.


Continue to use the frequencies will not bring storm troopers.  Lawyers.  And hope to God you did not interrupt some emergency communication where someone's life is in danger, or..., or...  Seems like a victimless crime, or something a mega-corp can suck up.  It's not. 


We are a country of laws, and laws are what keep us safe, profitable, food in our bellies, and roof over our heads.  Sometimes following the laws cause pain, trouble, incarceration, or just loss of money.  Unfortunately, we have to suck it up. 


Breaking laws has consequences not only to you, but to others.
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21567
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2019, 08:49:52 pm »

If you search the wireless forum you will find a link to a map of the US and turn up dates for the 600Mhz cellular license.  My market (Cleveland OH) just started coming up and it is already busy and essentially unusable. 

Do you really want to be doing a wedding gig and in the middle of the groom's drunkalog the mic cuts out?

The reason you are getting a combination of BS and snark (and a few tidbits of wisdom) is the following:

1 - This forum especially has very high expectations of users, that certainly includes and intelligent subject, you failed out of the gate on that one.

2 - If you hang out in the wireless forum you will see some of the top RF engineers in the country on the highest earining arena tours actually take the time to answer questions.  To be able to tap that resource, to me, is frankly humbling.  It's the same in the audio forum but the RF forum in here is truly a special place.

3 - Your question was not one seeking knowledge.  You outright asked for emotional validation if you can get away with breaking the law. 

4 - The way you are approaching this makes my guess you are probably a musician in the band or a sound guy for a cover band or other type of local production that plays in bars and other makeshift venues.

RF is one area you just can't cheap out with and get any results.

Your quoting Scott makes it look like you are taking him to task.  Was that your intention?
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21567
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2019, 09:11:08 pm »

Danny, it's a case so sad, too bad.

For all intents and purposes the unlicensed use of the 600mHz band is no longer permitted (except for a couple of *very minor* exceptions).

Congress directed the FCC to free up under-utilized spectrum assignments and commercialize those to the benefit of the US treasury.  That's what started the whole digital TV thing, the reassignment of TV station channels, and the auction of the 700mHz band about 10 years ago.  That wasn't enough and the RF carriers and content producers/providers want more Orange Is the New Black in your pocket size device.  More shopping.  More up-streaming of content, too, as they can harvest useful info about you to sell to advertisers and less wholesome folk... but I digress.

Riley summed it up pretty well.  There are 2 possibilities, maybe 3.  First, you continue to operate and as more mobile devices use the 600mHz band the less reliable your mics will be; second, your wireless mics/IEM systems cause interference to a licensed service (like mobile) and TMobile or whomever is able to pinpoint you.  This will result in a NastyGramģ from a corporate attorney.  Do it to them a couple more times and you could hear from the FCC.  The result of that could involve 5-figure fines *per offense* and confiscation of offending equipment.  Or third, you could continue to operate for an indefinite period of time without consequence until #1 or #2 happens.

So that's the why and what, Danny.  Sorry but you own some paperweights unless you put them on ebay and sell them internationally.  It's probably less hassle to put them in the E-waste recycle bin.
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Russell Ault

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 786
  • Edmonton, AB
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2019, 02:54:20 am »

How many times are you in an environment where other wireless mics and IEM systems are competing with you for the same bandwidth?

Years ago I was working a big convention at a large hotel at Disney World. I discovered that some how 2 wireless systems were tuned to the exact same frequencies. I don't remember how I found this out because they weren't interfering with each other because they were far enough apart in that facility.

Honestly, every December.

I did a Christmas party last year in a hotel that was hosting probably six or eight other parties. The group I was working for had no RF issues, but a band playing one of the other parties had tuned one of their mics to the same frequency as the hotel-provided lectern mic for our room. It was a set-and-forget by the hotel's in-house A/V, and the lectern mic's switch was set to turn the thing on and off (not just AF mute), so needless to say as soon as the announcements were finished the mic was switched off and the receiver captured onto the mic in the other room.

Digital wireless with its in-built error detection tends to fail to silent, and so is a little more forgiving in these sorts of environments (especially if you're using better gear than most of the other people in the building), but FM is FM is FM, companding be damned. I'd be very wary of relying solely on the capture effect to make sure my group's IEMs are picking up the signals they're supposed to be.

-Russ
Logged

Kevin McDonough

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2019, 05:39:13 am »

hey

just as a help to the OP and to posters in general, the UK is probably a good idea to look at in terms of international markets you may sell to.

We've also had our own similar problems with the government selling off frequency spectrum, but in our case it was 700MHz they sold off and we are still able to use 600MHz.

In particular, if its a fairly wide ranging tuning set you have, that reaches from the high 500MHz into the 600MHz band, that'll be even more attractive to us. We have a special band at our channel 38 (606-614) called our shared licence spectrum. This is much cheaper for us to use as we can just pay a single yearly fee for unlimited use, we don't have to buy it on a per use case as we do with higher up in the 600MHz range.

(I believe from memory you don't actually use those frequencies, your spectrum allocation uses that as a buffer zone between adjacent users? But if your equipment tunes wide enough that it tunes through that range anyway, we can make use of it).

Plus, in addition to the fact we use 600MHz, we also obviously speak English which makes communication easy, and our shipping is pretty reliable, most of the same operators you have (UPS, FedEx etc) all happily deliver over here too.

k
Logged

Cailen Waddell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1428
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2019, 07:37:38 am »

Probably worth noting that documenting your intent to use illegal gear on the internet probably wonít help your lawyer when their lawyer shows up... 

If replacing 600 MHz gear isnít financially an option, it may be time to have a hard look at those business finances... are you charging enough for your services?  Are you setting aside funds for asset replacement? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

Kevin Maxwell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1347
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2019, 10:09:17 am »

Honestly, every December.

I did a Christmas party last year in a hotel that was hosting probably six or eight other parties. The group I was working for had no RF issues, but a band playing one of the other parties had tuned one of their mics to the same frequency as the hotel-provided lectern mic for our room. It was a set-and-forget by the hotel's in-house A/V, and the lectern mic's switch was set to turn the thing on and off (not just AF mute), so needless to say as soon as the announcements were finished the mic was switched off and the receiver captured onto the mic in the other room.

Digital wireless with its in-built error detection tends to fail to silent, and so is a little more forgiving in these sorts of environments (especially if you're using better gear than most of the other people in the building), but FM is FM is FM, companding be damned. I'd be very wary of relying solely on the capture effect to make sure my group's IEMs are picking up the signals they're supposed to be.

-Russ

Thank you for enlightening me. I canít believe that I forgot about what normal people have to deal with. I donít consider myself special, just abnormal.  :o

Most of the time when I have been using wireless systems we are usually the only ones in the venue, we have taken over the whole place. There were times when doing corporate work that there may have been a bunch of breakout rooms but there were all ours. So we had control of the frequency coordination, but the time I mentioned with 2 systems on the same frequency they were so far apart in the venue it wasnít a problem. Iím not doing those type of events anymore (I stopped doing them when we still had 700MHz) but if I was I might have to take into account how to overlap the tuning with taking into account the locations in the venue to fit enough channels in.

I need to find out how the changes (loss of 600MHz and the repack) are going to affect a church I am working with now on some up upgrades. In a recent install the wireless manufacturer had given the sound company a frequency coordination for the location that took into account the repack but it looked like it didnít take into account what the present landscape was. I merged the 2 together and it all looked fine. But we will see what happens when it all switches over.
Logged

Dave Garoutte

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2272
  • San Rafael, CA
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2019, 01:07:22 pm »

I sold off all my B-channel Senny stuff as soon as I learned about the repack.
Ebay has an international reach.
Logged
Nothing can be made idiot-proof; only idiot resistant.

Events.  Stage, PA, Lighting and Backline rentals.
Chauvet dealer.  Home of the Angler.
Inventor.  And now, Streaming Video!

frank kayser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1543
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2019, 09:36:28 pm »

Probably worth noting that documenting your intent to use illegal gear on the internet probably wonít help your lawyer when their lawyer shows up... 

If replacing 600 MHz gear isnít financially an option, it may be time to have a hard look at those business finances... are you charging enough for your services?  Are you setting aside funds for asset replacement


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cailen,
In the real business world, no doubt you're absolutely on target


Speaking as a Lounger and for most intents and purposes, a hobbyist, my business model is admittedly broken, and those normal, proper business concerns, like asset replacement, are not (but should be) on my radar.  Having hardware "obsoleted" hurts, hurts hard, but we just have to suck it up, regardless of our (non)functioning business model.  As Dave said, sell when you smell trouble.   


I love the wiz-bang tech, the challenge of the show, and the folks who appreciate my work. My business model?  Not so broken that a four-year degree in business, minor in accounting, and 20 years of therapy couldn't fix.
frank
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Can I get a real world answer to a real world question please
¬ę Reply #18 on: May 23, 2019, 09:36:28 pm ¬Ľ


Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.044 seconds with 22 queries.