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Author Topic: Considering renting  (Read 1872 times)

Steve Mason

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Considering renting
« on: May 11, 2019, 05:45:12 pm »

Hi all.  I am a small sound provider who kind of just fell into it when offered an opportunity to provide sound for our small county fair when their previous provider "outgrew" the gig.  I have managed to prosumer my way through the last two years but am considering upgrading subs at the very least.  I have the ability to rent in powered ELX subs and mains. No JBL provider in the area for rentals.  Music lineup is 22 acts over 4 days ranging from local drum circle to jazz to hippie folk to country to 90's rock covers.  I am attaching a picture of the stage.  We only play out to about 100'.and I don't need huge spl at that distance. Beyond that ambient sound is all we need.  My question is, What is the opinion of what I would need to adequately cover this 40' X 100 foot area.  The ELX's are what I have to work with so please remain within that confine.

For those that wonder what I would be trying to improve on it would be 6 X PV118 passive subs and 2 x PV215 mains and 2 X PV 115 mains with adequate power behind them.

Attached photo is stage view looking out to crowd.

Respectful opinions appreciated.
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Mal Brown

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2019, 06:52:02 pm »

If I were covering that it would be 4 1x18 subs, 2 3 way tops on short poles.  2 powered 1x10 and Horn as front vocal in fill.

A rock band with an SVT and a couple of 50 watt tube guitar amps could (and have) walk all over that.

In your case, if you can rent it would be a 2 sub per top rental IMO.  If the EV stuff is best you can get, get that.

Every rig has itís limits.  Trick is to identify those and work within them to deliver the best possible per scenario.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2019, 07:01:21 pm »

I don't think you would improve on max SPL with an ELX system but sounds like that isn't your problem anyway. I think to make a significant improvement you need to step up to much better mains(EV ETX) or maybe add much better processing to the existing rig.. how is the PV rig processed anyway?
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2019, 07:25:06 pm »

Every time I see a location like that, my brain says "hmmm, KF850".
2 a side with some subs an off you go.
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Steve Mason

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2019, 07:46:53 pm »

Every time I see a location like that, my brain says "hmmm, KF850".
2 a side with some subs an off you go.

Do those come with a crane?  :-)
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Steve Mason

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2019, 07:55:26 pm »

If I were covering that it would be 4 1x18 subs, 2 3 way tops on short poles.  2 powered 1x10 and Horn as front vocal in fill.

A rock band with an SVT and a couple of 50 watt tube guitar amps could (and have) walk all over that.

In your case, if you can rent it would be a 2 sub per top rental IMO.  If the EV stuff is best you can get, get that.

Every rig has itís limits.  Trick is to identify those and work within them to deliver the best possible per scenario.

We generally only have local folks on the bill and we are a small community so I know almost everyone and everyone is pretty good about not cranking their Marshall half stack (or equivalent) to 11. As for out of town bands I won't book them until I am confident they understand their amps/speakers are only for their reference on stage and to put out a signal/mic feed to my board.  I like working with "old farts" who get it.
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Steve Mason

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2019, 08:08:58 pm »

I don't think you would improve on max SPL with an ELX system but sounds like that isn't your problem anyway. I think to make a significant improvement you need to step up to much better mains(EV ETX) or maybe add much better processing to the existing rig.. how is the PV rig processed anyway?

Crown XLS series amps (generally rated 120% of speaker "peak" capacity) 18's get lo pass filter 125 and below.  215's get full range signal  and 115's get hi pass at 250 and above.  Compression via Behringer Composer XL compressor generally using "auto" settings because we switch from musical style every act pretty much.  Pretty basic. No computers, just me and some knobs and sliders (and I don't mean my crew).
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 08:57:11 pm by Steve Mason »
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Steve Mason

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2019, 12:24:21 am »

May have located QSC  4x KLA12, 4x KW181, for a reasonable price within a 3 hour drive.  Fingers crossed
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Steven Eudaly

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2019, 12:28:51 am »

Every time I see a location like that, my brain says "hmmm, KF850".
2 a side with some subs an off you go.

This is exactly the type of gig that keeps us from selling our 850s.

Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2019, 05:30:21 am »

Crown XLS series amps (generally rated 120% of speaker "peak" capacity) 18's get lo pass filter 125 and below.  215's get full range signal  and 115's get hi pass at 250 and above.  Compression via Behringer Composer XL compressor generally using "auto" settings because we switch from musical style every act pretty much.  Pretty basic. No computers, just me and some knobs and sliders (and I don't mean my crew).

I'd recommend ditching the compressor unless you're using it for peak limiting on an "oops" moment:
- Dropped mic
- Making/breaking a connection with phantom power.


You might be surprised at what you can get out of your system (in terms of quality) with a measurement mic and some EQ work.
The thing to remember, though, is you've only got a pair of 1" (exit) compression drivers per side, and that's gonna put a limit on things.

If you were up for a little bit of DIY to improve your system, find a pair of 90x40 (or 90x60) horns that match the existing cutouts and have a 1.4" or 2" throat. Add a larger compression driver and tri-amp the system.

May have located QSC  4x KLA12, 4x KW181, for a reasonable price within a 3 hour drive.  Fingers crossed

Read some reviews on the KLAs before going to get them. I'd bet you could buy a measurement mic and USB interface for less.

Chris
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Mike Pyle

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2019, 12:27:08 pm »

That canopy looks like it has the potential to significantly affect the sound quality to at least half the seats, as well as the mix position.
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Steve Garris

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2019, 01:40:28 pm »

FWIW, I do a lot of shows like this. When I started, I used a PRX615 over a single PRX618 per side, which was perfectly adequate for the job (they don't want concert level).

As the crowds grew larger I decided to upgrade, and purchased an SRX system - same setup with a 15" two-way over a single 18 sub per side. The crowds now are up to 1000, and everyone is still happy including all of the bands. I use iPad mixers - no FOH. I'll admit my job is easier with the band playing to an open, bowl shaped grassy field. That tent structure will probably make things interesting.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2019, 03:15:13 pm »

I would do something with your FOH power and snake crossing the sidewalk on the Left side in the picture.

Mixing from inside that crazy tent would be tough........but then again if most of the audience is listening from inside the tent maybe that's what the mix reference should be!

Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2019, 03:43:13 pm »

Crown XLS series amps (generally rated 120% of speaker "peak" capacity) 18's get lo pass filter 125 and below.  215's get full range signal  and 115's get hi pass at 250 and above. 
Via what and analog crossover or from the mixer?

You might be surprised at what you can get out of your system (in terms of quality) with a measurement mic and some EQ work.
This is where I was going with the processing question, simply adding a driverack style device and spending some time with a measurement mic to generate corrective processing could really improve the sound quality you get with the existing system. The other boxes mentioned would be a lateral move at best I think, to get a significant improvement in midrange(vocal) clarity you need cabs with large format compression drivers or proper 3-way cabs.

I also think you may be handicapping the rig somewhat letting the 215 run fullrange, these are essentially your midrange drivers and should therefore see no low bass at all. Overall there seems to be lots of room for improving this rig based on what we know so far.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 03:47:26 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Lyle Williams

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2019, 04:51:53 pm »

If the previous provider outgrew the gig, does that mean that there was little appetite for increased spending?

ie, do you stick with the PA you have got, and try small service improvements each year (better mixing, better foldback, ...) staying profitable and waiting for the organisers to dream big?
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Steve Mason

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2019, 08:45:03 pm »

If the previous provider outgrew the gig, does that mean that there was little appetite for increased spending?


He outgrew the gig, not the rig.  He's the provider for the local casinos and larger outdoor stuff. 
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Scott Olewiler

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Considering renting
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2019, 09:42:45 am »

Crown XLS series amps (generally rated 120% of speaker "peak" capacity) 18's get lo pass filter 125 and below.  215's get full range signal  and 115's get hi pass at 250 and above.  Compression via Behringer Composer XL compressor generally using "auto" settings because we switch from musical style every act pretty much.  Pretty basic. No computers, just me and some knobs and sliders (and I don't mean my crew).
Trying to use your PV215 cabs to duplicate what your subs and and the 115s are already doing is counter productive. You are most likely losing SPL due to interference.

Low pass your subs much lower, say around 90-95, then high pass the 215s at the same frequency or higher; and depending how much energy the subs are putting out, you may want to go as high as 120 to get the 215s out of the real acoustic  overlap area and then also high pass your subs at 40-45 hz so you're not wasting power trying to produce frequencies the speakers can't handle and you don't really need for the type of live music you describe.

Idea is to only send to each speaker the optimal frequency range to perform the job is has to do. Having a small gap in coverage around 100-110hz isn't going to hurt and narrowing the range of frequencies  each speaker has to handle will actually give you more usable SPL.  Save the 115s for front fill use only.

Then of course take the advice given on using a good measurement mic and applying appropriate system eq, to free up more usable SPL.




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William Schnake

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2019, 09:46:23 am »

Hi all.  I am a small sound provider who kind of just fell into it when offered an opportunity to provide sound for our small county fair when their previous provider "outgrew" the gig.
For those that wonder what I would be trying to improve on it would be 6 X PV118 passive subs and 2 x PV215 mains and 2 X PV 115 mains with adequate power behind them.

Steve, over the years we have done a lot of this type of fair show.  Sticking with what you have I would do the 3 PV118 per-side, I would see if I could rent another set of the PV215 and make sure I have enough power for them.  I would put out an 8" to 10" w/horn centerfill I I had one.   

Here is my best advice sticking to your confines: You are going to provide X and the bands are going to want to play at X+1 volume because they are outside.  Talk to the bands and remind them that although this is an outdoor space that is larger than the average bar, this is a family event and that volume level is a concern for the audience.  Some will understand and some won't.  During soundcheck try and reel the ones who want blast past your system's limitation in.

I would agree with most everyone else that this is a great spot for a set of EAW KF850efs/SB850 per side, but as you said it is not an option.

I am sure you will do fine.

Bill
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Doug Johnson

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Re: Considering renting
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2019, 01:39:35 pm »

Back in the day, for me, this type of stage was 2 15s- with a 2" horn and 2 double 18" per side.
Typically referred to as Delta-max type boxes.  I still have some Yorkville TX4 that come out from time to time and is still a pretty good sounding rig when properly processed. Look around you maybe able to find some lurking around somewhere.  Yorkville TX4s, EV Delta-max, Peavey DTH, everybody made them.  Or look around for some horn load Community Sls boxes.  These types of boxes are still pretty capable and make a good stepping stone on the path to something better..
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Re: Considering renting
¬ę Reply #18 on: May 19, 2019, 01:39:35 pm ¬Ľ


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