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Author Topic: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4  (Read 2787 times)

Andrew Broughton

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Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« on: April 26, 2019, 01:18:22 pm »

Looking to build an 8ch IEM system.
Other than build quality and slight difference in noise floor, what reasons are there to purchase the PSM1000 @ $5k/2ch vs EW300 @ $2k/2ch? Anyone done any RF comparisons? For the sake of argument, let's assume they are both using the same quality combiner (PA821 or TX-8U) and a helical.
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Brian Adams

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2019, 04:30:38 pm »

I've never done an RF comparison, but the PSM1000 has lots of other advantages. I just worked with a mixed system of PSM1000 and G3 last week, so here are my thoughts on PSM1000 advantages. I've never used the G4, so I can't comment on that, and maybe some of this has changed.

That slight difference in noise floor you mention is actually a large difference.
Metal packs.
Diversity reception (not that much of an advantage).
A great rechargeable battery system.
Much better battery life indication.
Better headroom (at least in my experience).

And while I've never done an RF comparison, the PSM1000 seems to have fewer dropouts (or almost dropouts with that swishing sound, whatever you call that).
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brian maddox

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2019, 04:52:25 pm »

Looking to build an 8ch IEM system.
Other than build quality and slight difference in noise floor, what reasons are there to purchase the PSM1000 @ $5k/2ch vs EW300 @ $2k/2ch? Anyone done any RF comparisons? For the sake of argument, let's assume they are both using the same quality combiner (PA821 or TX-8U) and a helical.

Not sure if this applies to your situation but....

I know of a couple folks that opted to go PSM900 transmit and PSM1000 receiver.  It's a good bit cheaper.  You lose network control.  But you gain the ability to repackage your stuff to fly it MUCH more easily than the PSM1000 transmitters.  And you keep the diversity receivers, which does seem to make a difference.

My two cents having used both the G3 and PSM900/1000 systems is that the Shure is worth whatever the difference in price is.  The noise floor is WAY lower, and i like the way they "sound" better, whatever that means.  The packs are very rugged, and the volume limiter is VERY handy. 

****The volume limiter is not a compressor style limiter, it's a limit that you can set that once you turn the volume past a certain point it stops there.  It's great as you can set your gain structure to the ideal place which will likely land you around "5" on the receiver.  Set the volume limiter to 5 and the performer just turns it on and turns it up and it won't get louder than 5, no matter how much they turn the volume knob up. 

I own a PSM900 rig for my personal use and it's been worth every penny.
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Barry Reynolds

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2019, 07:06:30 pm »

I may get laughed at by the big boys, but at least take a look at MIPro mi-909 reviews.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2019, 08:04:54 pm »

Thank you for your reply, Brian. Some comments on your post...
That slight difference in noise floor you mention is actually a large difference.
If you get your gain structure right, the noise is not noticeable when using the 300's while playing.
Quote
Metal packs.
They're metal AFAIK. Certainly the G3 were!
Quote
Diversity reception (not that much of an advantage).
It's a big advantage, and the 300's are also diversity, using the headphone cable as a 2nd antenna.
Quote
A great rechargeable battery system.
The 300's have that as well. Battery life on the 300's is at LEAST double, but more typically 4x the life of the Shure.
Quote
Much better battery life indication.
Haven't noticed any difference there...
Quote
Better headroom (at least in my experience).
What do you mean exactly?

Quote
And while I've never done an RF comparison, the PSM1000 seems to have fewer dropouts (or almost dropouts with that swishing sound, whatever you call that).
I haven't experienced that.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2019, 08:08:11 pm »

Thanks, Brian!
Not sure if this applies to your situation but....

I know of a couple folks that opted to go PSM900 transmit and PSM1000 receiver.  It's a good bit cheaper.  You lose network control.  But you gain the ability to repackage your stuff to fly it MUCH more easily than the PSM1000 transmitters.  And you keep the diversity receivers, which does seem to make a difference.
I wouldn't want to have to give up the networking.

Quote
My two cents having used both the G3 and PSM900/1000 systems is that the Shure is worth whatever the difference in price is.  The noise floor is WAY lower, and i like the way they "sound" better, whatever that means.  The packs are very rugged, and the volume limiter is VERY handy.
Even if you were paying for them yourself? You can get 4 sets of Sen for the price of 2 Shures!

Quote
I own a PSM900 rig for my personal use and it's been worth every penny.
Doh! Guess you answered that question.
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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2019, 08:16:21 pm »

.....
Even if you were paying for them yourself? You can get 4 sets of Sen for the price of 2 Shures!
....
Doh! Guess you answered that question.

Well, i might choose differently if i was buying 8 channels. :)

Shure does have a higher transmit power, but that doesn't matter much most of the time.  30mW, vs. 100 mW IIRC.

One note, the current Shure rechargeable kit is LI-Ion and lasts a very long time.  Last i checked the Senn rechargeable kit was Ni-MH.  works well enough though.  And you can even buy battery packs cheap from china so that's a thing.  :) 

I will agree that the price difference is a bit much.  If you've been happy with the Sennys, i'd just stick with them.  Even with everything i said above...
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Luke Geis

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2019, 08:24:01 pm »

Having used both recently, my thoughts are this. For the money, the Sennheiser gives you a LOT of bang for the buck. The noise floor things does take some work to dial in, but it can be set up to work more than acceptably. The PSM1000 is pretty nice, but it is still not the best thing since sliced bread. I noticed, as with all IEM packs, that the stereo imaging is still not all that great and it does have a sound. I.E. it does not sound the same as when you plug your earbuds directly into a que'd mix from the mixer. The Sennheiser isn't any better really, but it isn't much worse either. Both are acceptable units and both perform well.

I would consider your budget and what part of the playing field you're really in. If you truly can justify $5k for two mixes, then obviously that is the way to go, if you are on the fence and you really can't afford ( more justify ) the cost of the PSM1000's, the Sennheiser stuff will honestly work great for you.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2019, 08:26:31 pm »

Shure does have a higher transmit power, but that doesn't matter much most of the time.  30mW, vs. 100 mW IIRC.
Matters a lot in my world where I'm fighting RF hash from Chinese LED walls! However, I now use combiners that can boost the RF output up to 250mw if need be, so not an issue.

Quote
One note, the current Shure rechargeable kit is LI-Ion and lasts a very long time.  Last i checked the Senn rechargeable kit was Ni-MH.  works well enough though.  And you can even buy battery packs cheap from china so that's a thing.  :)
The Shures are almost unusable without their $100 rechargeable. I can just use decent NiMh batteries in the 300's. Can't do that with the 1000's.

Quote
I will agree that the price difference is a bit much.  If you've been happy with the Sennys, i'd just stick with them.  Even with everything i said above...
The Shure's are a great product for sure (I've had 8 channels out for 3 years now), but like their other flagship products, it's WAY overpriced.


BUT... RF performance is very important. hopefully someone has done some measurements of the 2 systems...
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2019, 08:28:28 pm »

I may get laughed at by the big boys, but at least take a look at MIPro mi-909 reviews.
Even if everything else were equal, the high latency of this system makes it a non-starter for me.


What I REALLY want is for Lectro to come out with a v2 of their Duet with rechargeable packs and the other missing features, but I'm getting tired of waiting...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 08:35:47 pm by Andrew Broughton »
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brian maddox

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2019, 09:31:33 pm »



BUT... RF performance is very important. hopefully someone has done some measurements of the 2 systems...

I know that there was a LABster[i would name said LABster, but i'm not sure i remember who it was] that did an impressive measurement of the Audio performance of the two systems, but i'm not sure i've seen a real comprehensive comparison of the RF performance.  I'd be curious as well...
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Barry Reynolds

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2019, 10:28:05 pm »

Even if everything else were equal, the high latency of this system makes it a non-starter for me.


While I’ve “read” that on occasion, I have not “heard” it in two years of use with 8-12 piece horn bands.  YMMV
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Russell Ault

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2019, 01:21:29 am »

While I’ve “read” that on occasion, I have not “heard” it in two years of use with 8-12 piece horn bands.  YMMV

On its own, 5.84 ms might not be a problem (or it might; the last study I read on the subject said that acceptable round-trip latency for IEMs varies widely depending on the instrument being played and, to some extent, on the perceptiveness of the player), but it is going to eat up a huge chunk of whatever latency budget you're playing with. With digital wireless microphones and a more latent console (Waves plugins, anyone?) 5.84 ms might well break the "bank".

-Russ
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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2019, 01:16:44 pm »

On its own, 5.84 ms might not be a problem (or it might; the last study I read on the subject said that acceptable round-trip latency for IEMs varies widely depending on the instrument being played and, to some extent, on the perceptiveness of the player), but it is going to eat up a huge chunk of whatever latency budget you're playing with. With digital wireless microphones and a more latent console (Waves plugins, anyone?) 5.84 ms might well break the "bank".

-Russ

Thanks for the details on how latency can compound.  My usage is merely A&H SQ-5 with the mi-909s on the outputs of an AR2412.  SQ has reduced latency than Qu, but we didn’t notice IEM latency with a Qu either. 
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Jason Glass

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2019, 05:50:14 pm »

While I’ve “read” that on occasion, I have not “heard” it in two years of use with 8-12 piece horn bands.  YMMV
As mixers, we rarely, if ever, perceive the same audible effects of latency in IEM as a singer does.  Same with brass, woodwind, and stringed instruments played closely to the ear or touching any part of the head (violin, viola, etc.).  Each person's anatomy is so unique that it's impossible.  What the savviest engineers do know is that shorter latency almost always gives those performers a more pleasant experience than longer, or at least makes it easier for the performer and mixer to work together to correct and compensate for anomalies inevitably caused bone conduction.

Sent from my mobile phone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 05:54:56 pm by Jason Glass »
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DavidTurner

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2019, 07:24:46 pm »

This:
When latency gets over about 3 ms the singer I work for can’t stand it.
As mixers, we rarely, if ever, perceive the same audible effects of latency in IEM as a singer does.  Same with brass, woodwind, and stringed instruments played closely to the ear or touching any part of the head (violin, viola, etc.).  Each person's anatomy is so unique that it's impossible.  What the savviest engineers do know is that shorter latency almost always gives those performers a more pleasant experience than longer, or at least makes it easier for the performer and mixer to work together to correct and compensate for anomalies inevitably caused bone conduction.

Sent from my mobile phone using Tapatalk
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2019, 08:12:03 pm »

I know that there was a LABster [i would name said LABster, but i'm not sure i remember who it was] that did an impressive measurement of the Audio performance of the two systems, but i'm not sure i've seen a real comprehensive comparison of the RF performance.  I'd be curious as well...

Langston Holland
The review is here.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 08:16:55 pm by Andrew Broughton »
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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2019, 08:20:40 pm »

Like the other poster in that thread, I too would like to know if there's an audible or RF quality difference between the 300 and 2000 series. I've used the 2000 more than the 300 but not noticed any difference other than build quality (and maybe max power output)? Certainly no difference that justifies the cost difference that I could hear or see.
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Steve Litscher

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2019, 10:59:28 am »

Not sure if this applies to your situation but....

I know of a couple folks that opted to go PSM900 transmit and PSM1000 receiver.  It's a good bit cheaper.  You lose network control.  But you gain the ability to repackage your stuff to fly it MUCH more easily than the PSM1000 transmitters.  And you keep the diversity receivers, which does seem to make a difference.



Can you share more info about this? I have the PSM900T and P9R+ but am interested in going with the P10R+ if possible. My Shure rep says it's not possible - that the channels aren't a direct match (RF-wise). I'd love to know more, and even moreso, if it's truly possible to do.

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2019, 11:47:48 am »

Can you share more info about this? I have the PSM900T and P9R+ but am interested in going with the P10R+ if possible. My Shure rep says it's not possible - that the channels aren't a direct match (RF-wise). I'd love to know more, and even moreso, if it's truly possible to do.

I also know a church that did PSM900 transmitters with PSM1000 beltpacks.  It's the same companding and such, you'd just need to hand-program the beltpacks.  It's not something that would be very convenient in a touring situation, but in a stable installation scenario would be OK.
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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2019, 02:02:03 pm »

The IR sync works with P10T and P9RA, I haven’t tried the other way (P9T to P10R).


I also know a church that did PSM900 transmitters with PSM1000 beltpacks.  It's the same companding and such, you'd just need to hand-program the beltpacks.  It's not something that would be very convenient in a touring situation, but in a stable installation scenario would be OK.
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brian maddox

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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2019, 12:18:32 am »

The IR sync works with P10T and P9RA, I haven’t tried the other way (P9T to P10R).

I too have done this, so i know it works.  Even when the receivers and transmitters frequency ranges are not a perfect match.  I haven't personally done it the other way around...
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Re: Shure PSM1000 vs Sennheiser EW300IEM-G4
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2019, 12:18:32 am »


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