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[John Schalk]

I've been tire kicking new subs for quite a while now and the RCF 8003 Mk2 subs are near the top of my list.  Very flexible DSP settings built in.  I like the tall versus wide box size too.  In a club, you could stack a pair per side and use that to elevate your top boxes.  My suggestion is for you to network with other local sound companies until you find an RCF dealer that you can work with.  You should be able to get a better deal than the online catalog price.  Then wait until you can afford to buy more of what you already own. 

[Steve Garris]

My 2 pennies are this:

Luke, that's such a great explanation of speakers/spl/watts that I copied it to a Word doc for future reference. Thanks!

[Ivan Beaver]

Just to add to the "confusion" and education.

Watts has pretty much been covered, but probably MORE important is the "simple SPL" numbers.

People WANT to believe what they THINK it means, but are you sure?

Especially with subs, a simple SPL number can often be VERY VERY misleading.

Where does that number come from?

Is it from a SPL meter reading with the sub operated in the SUB (or intended range)? Or is it a more "full range" SPL reading.

MANY (most?) subs are louder (producing higher SPL) outside (higher) than the intended operating range.

So (as is often done), the "simple SPL" number is what the sub is producing from freq outside of the actual operating range.

And if the measurement is a "simple SPL meter" reading, if you had a perfectly flat response woofer, the wider the response range, the higher the meter will show.

There is one case (that I will not revel the manufacturer or model) in which a very well respected manufacturer used to give specs for subs as (20-20Khz) sensitivity.

In one particular case the SPL number was 10dB higher than it "should have been", because there was a large peak in the response around 1.8KHz.  Not exactly in the sub range, but yet the cabinet WOULD produce that SPL.  It is not usable, but doable.

So it is VERY important to know WHERE and HOW the "simple SPL" numbers are derived for the spec sheet.

Do NOT assume it is just in the sub range.

The only way to really tell is to see a freq response graph, with a calibrated SPL scale.  If you dont see that, then the numbers could be anything that the marketing dept wants them to be.

A complex question has many easy to understand WRONG answers.

[Terry Jackson 5]

thanks again fellas for the in depth responses im going to save up for a couple more of these rcf wonder subs after reading the advice hear.

on a seperate note what do you guys think of these? they claim 136db from a speaker that costs little more than £200.

could these pass for house music events, im not trying to recreate the sydney opera house hear just boom pa boom pa boom pa..........................................

reviews on site are promising or is this just more of the same bogus claims?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_dsp_115.htm#bewertung

[Luke Geis]

Again, referring to just the math of it, for it to get that loud it would have to have a sensitivity of 104.5db!!!! There is no way in hell that a $250 speaker will have that level of performance; ABSOLUTELY NO WAY IN HELL. There are speakers that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars that will do that, but not a $250 one.

There are very few hidden gems out there and this is most certainly not one of them. While it may sound just fine and probably gets loud enough, it isn't the powerhouse it is touting itself as. My guess based on what I think the speaker is really capable of would be that it is probably at best capable of a peak SPL of 130db. That being the case, it is probably likely to have a real-world output ( actually achievable and quantifiable ) of closer to 120db which is being pretty generous actually. Now keep in mind that 120db is pretty darn loud and actually being able to produce that SPL is usually enough for most small events and low impact shows.

Live audio is one of the few industries where you do actually get what you pay for. There are obviously some bloated products that cost more than they should, but for the most part, you pay for the performance you want and it will tend to track accordingly. You really have to consider what a box brand store is trying to sell you. Typically, box brand products are aimed at tapping into the lower end markets by making products that are very cheap and having a decent margin on them. If they can sell that speaker for $250 you have to bet that it actually cost them less than $100 to produce it!!!! Scale that against even a $1,000 speaker and you can see that there is no way in hell that thing is any good in comparison. When you buy a box brand XLR cable for $15, it cost them perhaps $2 to produce it. You wouldn't believe how cheap many of these China made products are. You can buy modular 60 watt stereo Hi-Fi amplifiers with Blu-Tooth built in for $15 and that is at the retail level. Now imagine a company like I-Home or whatever, that is selling a unit similar to that for $50. You know they are getting it made for pennies on the dollar. There is no difference here with The Box Pro. It is a pennies on the dollar product sold to hit the lowest common denominator.

[Caleb Dueck]

thanks again fellas for the in depth responses im going to save up for a couple more of these rcf wonder subs after reading the advice hear.

on a seperate note what do you guys think of these? they claim 136db from a speaker that costs little more than £200.

could these pass for house music events, im not trying to recreate the sydney opera house hear just boom pa boom pa boom pa..........................................

reviews on site are promising or is this just more of the same bogus claims?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_dsp_115.htm#bewertung

When it comes to subwoofers, the best is to listen to some good subs (Danley TH118XL, BC415, JTR Orbit Shifter, even the older Bassmaxx B-Zero, or LAB Sub).  Then listen to some of the better dual 18 front loaded subs (KS28, B22, RS18, etc).  With those two data points in mind, then listen to the various other lower cost subs. 

This is why I would rather have a single TH118XL (for example) rather than multiple cheap subs.  I've used the RCF 8004, the big brother to the 8003, and it's 'OK' but muddy compared to the above subs.  Once you add the cost of multiple cheap subs vs one good sub, and the total space required, and electrical current required - there's a reason why fewer high quality subs are better than more cheap subs. 

[Terry Jackson 5]

When it comes to subwoofers, the best is to listen to some good subs (Danley TH118XL, BC415, JTR Orbit Shifter, even the older Bassmaxx B-Zero, or LAB Sub).  Then listen to some of the better dual 18 front loaded subs (KS28, B22, RS18, etc).  With those two data points in mind, then listen to the various other lower cost subs. 

This is why I would rather have a single TH118XL (for example) rather than multiple cheap subs.  I've used the RCF 8004, the big brother to the 8003, and it's 'OK' but muddy compared to the above subs.  Once you add the cost of multiple cheap subs vs one good sub, and the total space required, and electrical current required - there's a reason why fewer high quality subs are better than more cheap subs.

the subs you mention here are in a different priced ball park compared to the 8003, i have a hard time believeing that the rcf 8004 sounds muddy even in comparison to the more expensive subs you mentioned.

Saying that i am inclined to believe you because of the amount of posts you have on this forum so i guess you must no what your talking about. I dont have any where that i could demo such subs and my return on investment would be none existent for my particular circumstances.

[Terry Jackson 5]

Again, referring to just the math of it, for it to get that loud it would have to have a sensitivity of 104.5db!!!! There is no way in hell that a $250 speaker will have that level of performance; ABSOLUTELY NO WAY IN HELL. There are speakers that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars that will do that, but not a $250 one.

There are very few hidden gems out there and this is most certainly not one of them. While it may sound just fine and probably gets loud enough, it isn't the powerhouse it is touting itself as. My guess based on what I think the speaker is really capable of would be that it is probably at best capable of a peak SPL of 130db. That being the case, it is probably likely to have a real-world output ( actually achievable and quantifiable ) of closer to 120db which is being pretty generous actually. Now keep in mind that 120db is pretty darn loud and actually being able to produce that SPL is usually enough for most small events and low impact shows.

Live audio is one of the few industries where you do actually get what you pay for. There are obviously some bloated products that cost more than they should, but for the most part, you pay for the performance you want and it will tend to track accordingly. You really have to consider what a box brand store is trying to sell you. Typically, box brand products are aimed at tapping into the lower end markets by making products that are very cheap and having a decent margin on them. If they can sell that speaker for $250 you have to bet that it actually cost them less than $100 to produce it!!!! Scale that against even a $1,000 speaker and you can see that there is no way in hell that thing is any good in comparison. When you buy a box brand XLR cable for $15, it cost them perhaps $2 to produce it. You wouldn't believe how cheap many of these China made products are. You can buy modular 60 watt stereo Hi-Fi amplifiers with Blu-Tooth built in for $15 and that is at the retail level. Now imagine a company like I-Home or whatever, that is selling a unit similar to that for $50. You know they are getting it made for pennies on the dollar. There is no difference here with The Box Pro. It is a pennies on the dollar product sold to hit the lowest common denominator.

ill let you know how they are as i have just ordered 2, ive currently just sold 2 rcf 745a, but still have 2 jbl prx715 to side by side when they arrive, im not expecting much but they would only be for a mobile disco in high pass. stand by...........

[Ivan Beaver]

Again, referring to just the math of it, for it to get that loud it would have to have a sensitivity of 104.5db!!!!

This is not saying anything about any of the products mentioned, but rather just a "hats off" to Luke for pointing out how to do a little bit of simple math to come up with another part of the spec.

That is a VERY GOOD exercise that most people don't do.

Use the claimed output, the wattage dB gain and then look at what the sensitivity would have to be.

Have you EVER seen a similar sub that can come close to the "back calculated" number, within the intended operating range?

If you ask yourself that question, about a lot of gear, you start to get a better understanding of how things relate to each other.

It is real easy to "back work" the numbers to get other numbers, if you take a couple of minutes to see if it makes sense.

[Mark Wilkinson]

It works well, AS LONG AS there is plenty of water to cover up the heaters.

It is amazing how a decent sized amp can quickly turn a hot water heater turn bright orange/red.

Oh yeah!  I found that out real quick...and the biggest amp i have is a PL380...

Seeing the water heater element start glowing makes me wonder how voice coils hang in so well...
Also makes me realize how nuts it is to try to get that 'last 3dB' out of our subs...

[ProSoundWeb Community]