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Author Topic: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218  (Read 1174 times)

Terry Jackson 5

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RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« on: April 18, 2019, 03:16:45 pm »


https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pro_tp218_1600_a.htm?ref=search_prv_4

https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_sub_8003_as_mkii.htm

Hi all the names terry,

I currently own 2 RCF 8003 mk2 and i have to say they are an amazing product, ive been eyeing up the thomann subwoofer for a while now and would appriciate any thoughts on it or owners comments.

on paper it would seem that it is slightly louder and has double the wattage of the rcf but i cant help feeling its going to be louder in reality but that is just a hunch.

the buyers reviews on thomann are all in favour and i think its no.2 in the charts for thomann.

but its a long way to ship if its a piece of junk, and doris at the post office will be none to happy when i try to ship this baby back to germany from the uk.

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Luke Geis

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Re: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2019, 07:08:17 pm »

My 2 pennies are this:

We are talking about a Dual 18" sub that should have a theoretical +3db to +6db advantage over a single 18" any day of the week. This means that the T sub is weak sauce in comparison. If you were to add another pair of RCF 8003's ( for a total of 4 ), you would easily have nearly double the output that a pair of the dual 18" T subs could provide.

To make things even more interesting, the Thomann T Sub is a Box store brand. I.E. it is a very cheaply made unit to get it into a market segment that is not actually owned, designed or even produced by the name that is on the box. While Thomann may have given the manufacturer some input as to what they wanted, they had likely nothing to do with the actual making of it other than placing their name on it.

Now for the good side of things. The Thomann T sub is VERY CHEAP!!! So those that will invest in it will get a pretty fair amount of boom for the buck. Because it is so cheap most will afford buying at least a pair if not more. Now, 136db isn't exactly petty change volume. Assuming the speaker at least performs close to the same standard that other vendors do, it will produce decent output. The caveat to that is that most dual 18" designs that are even on teh lower end of the performance scale will produce around 138db. Granted 2db is nothing to really worry about, but it is a clear indication that it is NOT up to the same level as even other affordable units are.

The math side of things. Assuming we can extract 100% of the SPL each speaker says it can make, this means that the RCF speaker is only 1db lower in SPL to that of the T sub with 2 X 18" speakers in it!!! Now if we were to get a full +6db for doubling the number of subs, this would mean that the T sub would have a total potential SPL of 142db ( 136 + 6= 142 ) if you had 2 of them. The RCF would have  141db ( 135 + 6= 141 ) if you had two of them. Now imagine if you had yet another pair of RCF 8003's!?!?! This would mean you have a total of 4 single 18" subs that are capable of producing yet another +6db in output. With 4 of the RCF speakers, you would have a theoretical peak output of 147db! That is 5db more than a pair of T subs and it would still consume the same amount of space. 5db is considerable, but there is more.

RCF is known as a reliable and credible vendor and the specs they state are pretty true and honest. That is to say that the 8003 could actually be capable of producing the peak output it states. Most vendors are not as honest and the peak numbers they state are only capable under very special or specific conditions. The T sub doesn't stand out as being the type that would actually be able to produce the output it states. While 136db is modest for a dual 18" sub, I still don't believe that it will actually produce that number.  Tit for tat right now, I feel that the RCF's would hold their own quite well against the T subs. If I really wanted more boom in teh room, I would double down on the RCF's.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2019, 01:47:34 pm »

Watts don't make sound.  The loudspeaker rating in Watts is how much power the voice coil can dissipate as heat for a limited amount of time.

If you want more Watts, buy a resistance space heater.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2019, 02:31:54 pm »

Watts don't make sound.  The loudspeaker rating in Watts is how much power the voice coil can dissipate as heat for a limited amount of time.

If you want more Watts, buy a resistance space heater.
Toasters are also good if you want a lot of watts in a smaller package.

Hot water heater elements are also good for dissipating lots of watts.
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2019, 05:19:57 pm »

Toasters are also good if you want a lot of watts in a smaller package.

Hot water heater elements are also good for dissipating lots of watts.


Funny..
Me poor man's amp load ...
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2019, 05:54:18 pm »

Funny..
Me poor man's amp load ...
It works well, AS LONG AS there is plenty of water to cover up the heaters.

It is amazing how a decent sized amp can quickly turn a hot water heater turn bright orange/red.
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Terry Jackson 5

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Re: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2019, 05:55:39 pm »

My 2 pennies are this:

We are talking about a Dual 18" sub that should have a theoretical +3db to +6db advantage over a single 18" any day of the week. This means that the T sub is weak sauce in comparison. If you were to add another pair of RCF 8003's ( for a total of 4 ), you would easily have nearly double the output that a pair of the dual 18" T subs could provide.

To make things even more interesting, the Thomann T Sub is a Box store brand. I.E. it is a very cheaply made unit to get it into a market segment that is not actually owned, designed or even produced by the name that is on the box. While Thomann may have given the manufacturer some input as to what they wanted, they had likely nothing to do with the actual making of it other than placing their name on it.

Now for the good side of things. The Thomann T sub is VERY CHEAP!!! So those that will invest in it will get a pretty fair amount of boom for the buck. Because it is so cheap most will afford buying at least a pair if not more. Now, 136db isn't exactly petty change volume. Assuming the speaker at least performs close to the same standard that other vendors do, it will produce decent output. The caveat to that is that most dual 18" designs that are even on teh lower end of the performance scale will produce around 138db. Granted 2db is nothing to really worry about, but it is a clear indication that it is NOT up to the same level as even other affordable units are.

The math side of things. Assuming we can extract 100% of the SPL each speaker says it can make, this means that the RCF speaker is only 1db lower in SPL to that of the T sub with 2 X 18" speakers in it!!! Now if we were to get a full +6db for doubling the number of subs, this would mean that the T sub would have a total potential SPL of 142db ( 136 + 6= 142 ) if you had 2 of them. The RCF would have  141db ( 135 + 6= 141 ) if you had two of them. Now imagine if you had yet another pair of RCF 8003's!?!?! This would mean you have a total of 4 single 18" subs that are capable of producing yet another +6db in output. With 4 of the RCF speakers, you would have a theoretical peak output of 147db! That is 5db more than a pair of T subs and it would still consume the same amount of space. 5db is considerable, but there is more.

RCF is known as a reliable and credible vendor and the specs they state are pretty true and honest. That is to say that the 8003 could actually be capable of producing the peak output it states. Most vendors are not as honest and the peak numbers they state are only capable under very special or specific conditions. The T sub doesn't stand out as being the type that would actually be able to produce the output it states. While 136db is modest for a dual 18" sub, I still don't believe that it will actually produce that number.  Tit for tat right now, I feel that the RCF's would hold their own quite well against the T subs. If I really wanted more boom in teh room, I would double down on the RCF's.

Thanks for the in depth response i really do appriciate you taking the time. I can't afford to double down on the rcf's or i would instantly they are amazingly powerfull for a relatively light box. I guess i was trying to get the effect of 2 more rcf's with the outlay of the thomann.

I know watts arnt everything, but i started with a jbl jrx (500w) ----> yamaha dxs18 (1050w) ---------> RCF8003 (2200w) , on my particular journey more watts have indeed equaled more power.

shame i cant demo the thomann im so curious.
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Luke Geis

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Re: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2019, 09:20:16 pm »

We say watts don't equate to volume because there are two things that really make watts a useless measure. First and foremost, you get to a point of diminishing returns REALLY quick when it comes to watts. In order to acquire a +3db increase in output, you need double the wattage. So going from 1000 watts to 2000 watts with the same speaker should yield a +3db increase in SPL. To get another +3db you would then need 4000 watts! Now most amplifiers DO NOT have that kind of power on tap per channel and at ideal impedances ( no less than 4 ohm's ). 4000 watts for most is about the point of diminishing returns.

Next is speaker sensitivity. This is the true measure for performance. If you have two speakers and one has a sensitivity of 95db and the other has a sensitivity of 100db, the one with the higher sensitivity will always be 5db louder. This means that watt for watt, a speaker with higher sensitivity will simply produce more SPL with less needed wattage. As you can imagine, a speaker that has a +3db sensitivity advantage is already one doubling of amplifier power louder. Couple that with being able to handle more wattage ( another thing that higher end speakers tend to have going for them ), you can end up with a speaker that produces a very significant increase in output compared to lesser units.

You can factor speaker sensitivity by reverse engineering if you will. The RCF states a peak SPL of 135db with 2,200 watts. So by dividing the wattage by half and reducing spl by 3db per halving of power, you will eventually get to 1 watt. This would be the theoretical sensitivity. So 1,100 watts -3db = 132. Next is 550 watts -3db = 129 etc. etc. The math works out that the RCF 8003 has about a 101.6db sensitivity.  This is a believable number. Now the Tsub has 4,500 watts and a peak SPL of 136db. After running the numbers, the T sub has a sensitivity of about 99.5. This means the RCF is 2.1db more sensitive than the Tsub. The kick in the gut is that the Tsub has 2 speakers in it, so it should be 3db more sensitive than a single speaker right off the bat!!!! Assuming the Tsub was scaled down to a single 18" unit, it would be 6db lower in output. Since you lose 3db to loss of cone area and another 3db to halving the wattage, you lose a total of -6db. This means that at best, a single 18" of the Tsub would only have a peak SPL of 130db. Makes the RCF seem like a beast right?

Your experience with more watts equals more output also follows the scale of quality. The lowest end JBL, the mid-range Yamaha and the higher end RCF. To give you an idea, the newer JBL SRX 818 has a 1000 watt amplifier and produces 135db ( so it says anyway ). Now how did JBL get 135db of SPL with half the wattage of the RCF? It is either higher in sensitivity, or they are lying a little bit. I think it's a little bit of both, but I digress. Most speakers can't handle much beyond 4,000 watts. and most that you would be willing to afford can't get much beyond 4,000 watts per channel. This makes the 2,000 - 4,000 watt range pretty much the sweet spot for most brands and models. Less wattage = less output in general, but that is mostly because lower end units can't handle high wattage and have less sensitivity, so less wattage does equate to less output in that regard. You can still have a very low sensitivity unit that has a large amount of wattage powering it and have lower output as is evidenced by the Thomann Tsub. 
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2019, 10:24:03 pm »

Terry, what Luke and I are telling you is that you would need 2x the Thoman subs, driven by another amplifier, to get the output of 1 RCF sub.  That's more size, weight, truck pack & storage space, and expense.  Why triple the gear to *maybe* get a 3dB increase in total output - hardly noticeable at sub frequencies.

TANSTAAFL.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: RCF 8003 mk2 vs Thomann TP218
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2019, 12:12:50 am »

Thanks for the in depth response i really do appriciate you taking the time. I can't afford to double down on the rcf's or i would instantly they are amazingly powerfull for a relatively light box. I guess i was trying to get the effect of 2 more rcf's with the outlay of the thomann.

I know watts arnt everything, but i started with a jbl jrx (500w) ----> yamaha dxs18 (1050w) ---------> RCF8003 (2200w) , on my particular journey more watts have indeed equaled more power.

shame i cant demo the thomann im so curious.

Wait until you can afford it then.  These are a major step backwards in physical and sonic quality.  Mixing subs has mixed results too. 

You will be very disappointed with the results if you fo for the Thomann
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