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[Justice C. Bigler]

The Royal Opera lost an appeal in a lawsuit brought by a viola player over hearing damage caused by their performance of Wagner's Die Valkyrie in 2012:


https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-47965734?fbclid=IwAR3PvrftOASDn6mqLuLtqvDcA8FzYmBxLiIEorKwOnX08JGTOZ4GCHFuIXk


This original BBC story on the lawsuit:
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-35938704

The updated BBC story on the Royal Opera's original case loss:
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-43571144

I find a few things pretty suspicious with this story. The most recent story claims sound levels of 132dB and the original story of the lawsuit claims 137dB.

Of course there's no information on how those levels were measured. BUT, I have played in some astonishingly loud ensembles, jazz big bands and marching bands. And I don't believe that even in an indoor rehearsal for my college marching band, that the sound levels got much above 105dB. And that's with a section of nearly 15 trumpet players and a dozen trombone players and marching percussion sections. I just don't believe that an acoustic orchestra, even with 100 players, can achieve sound levels of 130+dB. It's just not physically possible to concentrate everyone into a small enough area to get those levels, nor do I believe that 100 people have the physical strength to output that much sound without amplification.


And speaking of amplification...who here has ever been to a rock concert that was 130+dB? Anyone? Sure they get loud, 110dB easy, 115. And we've all seen the retarded riders that spec a sound system capable of outputting 120dB at the FOH mix position. But how often has that ever been done, even if the system is capable of it? But getting to 130dB? That's a seriously powerful system, and would take an enormous amount of energy and amplifiers to achieve.

And this bit from the original story has me particularly incredulous:

And instruments are now louder than they ever were before because of the materials they are now made from.

It's laughable. I play on modern saxophones, Julius Keilwerth SX-90R alto and tenor saxophones. The alto saxophone is brass with nickel plating. The tenor is a made from a material called "nickel-silver" or "German silver". There is neither brass, or silver in either of these. It's a copper-nickel-zinc alloy. They look really cool and have a tone that is unique. But they aren't any louder than any other saxophones ever produced in the last 50 years. Loudness is produced by the mouthpiece and how much air a person pushes through them. And most of the orchestra players are likely playing on vintage instruments at least 50, if not more years old. Especially the string players. I'm sure their instruments average 100 years old.

This guy is just grasping at straws trying to find anything to blame his hearing damage on, other than his own personal responsibility.

[Randy Pence]

I thought it was an open secret that flute and violin musicians routinely mess up their hearing due to the proximity of their instruments to their ears

[Taylor Hall]

Of course there's no information on how those levels were measured. BUT, I have played in some astonishingly loud ensembles, jazz big bands and marching bands. And I don't believe that even in an indoor rehearsal for my college marching band, that the sound levels got much above 105dB. And that's with a section of nearly 15 trumpet players and a dozen trombone players and marching percussion sections. I just don't believe that an acoustic orchestra, even with 100 players, can achieve sound levels of 130+dB. It's just not physically possible to concentrate everyone into a small enough area to get those levels, nor do I believe that 100 people have the physical strength to output that much sound without amplification.

Even DCI corps peter out around 110db and they probably have the best chance of any "unplugged" performances to reach those levels, and that's with 150+ brass performers at their absolute peak on field. One corps that seems to always stand out for sheer volume is Carolina Crown, there have been multiple reports of 120db+ during their runs over the past few years and I believe it. These measurements were taken in the stands, however, so I don't know how much louder it would be if measured a foot or so in front of the performer.

[Chris Hindle]

... multiple reports of 120db+ during their runs over the past few years and I believe it. These measurements were taken in the stands, however, so I don't know how much louder it would be if measured a foot or so in front of the performer.

Easy enough to work out.
6 dB increase every time you halve the distance.
120 at, what, 75 feet ?
126 at 37, 132 at 18, 138 at 9 feet.....
Better be wearing plugs....
Don't forget, just like doubling speakers or doubling power, there's a 3dB increase in doubling of the source.
A 120 dB trumpet adds another 27 dB when 10 are played together. In theory, of course.

Chris.

[Art Welter]

I find a few things pretty suspicious with this story. The most recent story claims sound levels of 132dB and the original story of the lawsuit claims 137dB.

And speaking of amplification...who here has ever been to a rock concert that was 130+dB? Anyone? Sure they get loud, 110dB easy, 115. And we've all seen the retarded riders that spec a sound system capable of outputting 120dB at the FOH mix position. But how often has that ever been done, even if the system is capable of it?

Justice,

Although 132 or 137 dB seems suspicious at a "normal" distance, considering 115 dB at one meter is common for a single trombone or trumpet, one could easily hit those levels near the bell. It's certainly possible that a performer could have "leaned in" and pointed his horn inches from the unfortunate viola player's ears.

Last century while providing sound at First Avenue in Minneapolis, on several shows (Einstürzende Neubauten comes to mind..) the "C" weighted SPL exceeded 126 dB, "pegging" the meter at the house mix location. A true peak (impulse) reading meter would have registered levels well above 130 dB at the same position.
I don't miss those shows nearly as much as my hearing  .
 
Art

[Ivan Beaver]

Easy enough to work out.
6 dB increase every time you halve the distance.
120 at, what, 75 feet ?
126 at 37, 132 at 18, 138 at 9 feet.....
Better be wearing plugs....
Don't forget, just like doubling speakers or doubling power, there's a 3dB increase in doubling of the source.
A 120 dB trumpet adds another 27 dB when 10 are played together. In theory, of course.

Chris.

But that "simple math" makes a lot of "assumptions".

Such as- all of the players are in the same physical location, that they are producing the exact same signal-in amplitude-response-pitch-harmonics etc (so it will sum properly).

The reality is that it won't sum together as much as "the perfect math" says it will.

[Justice C. Bigler]

Easy enough to work out.
6 dB increase every time you halve the distance.
120 at, what, 75 feet ?
126 at 37, 132 at 18, 138 at 9 feet.....
Better be wearing plugs....
Don't forget, just like doubling speakers or doubling power, there's a 3dB increase in doubling of the source.
A 120 dB trumpet adds another 27 dB when 10 are played together. In theory, of course.

Chris.

1. I don't believe that they could get to 120dB. In a football field or stadium, spread out over the 50 or so yards, even the 50 or 60 soprano bugles that a drum corps has wouldn't put out that much sound. MAYBE if you could get the combined sound output of all of them together, in the same space as a single bugle. But you can't. The laws of physics tell us that no two pieces of matter can occupy the same space.

2. In an opera pit orchestra, you have 3, maybe 4 trumpet players. And even at their highest output, they don't play as loud as a drum corps bugle player. It's a totally different style of playing. In drum corps and marching band all you are really concerned with is total sound output, to the detriment of your actual tone quality. In orchestral work, you care more about the tone quality and quality of your playing than about total output. Those two goals are inversely proportional to each other. The louder you get, the worse your tone quality gets. And the better your tone is, the less loud you can play.

I'm not saying that orchestra brass players can't get loud. I'm just saying that they can't get to 130+dB loud without amplification. And I am highly suspicious that this trumpet was within 1 meter of this viola player's ear.


3. This viola player's lawsuit takes nothing into account of the rest of his life. We don't know if he has a degenerative genetic condition that caused his hearing damage. We don't know if he was subject to some other outside noise issue, like construction work, or a freight train, or a fire/ambulance siren. All of which are much more likely than an orchestra trumpet player achieving 130+dB.

My assumption is that this hoity-toity orchestra viola player has a bone to pick with wind players, and probably has a personal grudge with this particular trumpet player and wanted to make somebody pay up.

[Taylor Hall]

Ivan beat me to it. The best "wall of sound" scenario you get is a full-stop sideline formation, which, while it will raise the hair on your neck, will still not produce this mythical 137db figure they claim this pit orchestra did and still have a hard time hitting even 120.

[Chris Hindle]

But that "simple math" makes a lot of "assumptions".

Such as- all of the players are in the same physical location, that they are producing the exact same signal-in amplitude-response-pitch-harmonics etc (so it will sum properly).

The reality is that it won't sum together as much as "the perfect math" says it will.

Agreed on all points, but with no measurements, simple gives an idea of what may be going on.
Chris.

[Justice C. Bigler]

I've just spent some time playing my saxophones today, alto, tenor, and soprano. I know it's not the best test in the world, but on the Studio Six dB meter C weighted, slow response, on my iPad, I was able to peg the meter at about 101dB with my alto and tenor approximately 18" away. On my soprano, playing low Bb (the bottom of the horn) and pointed right into the mic on the iPad I was able to peg the meter at 102.7dB, we're talking just a few inches from the mic. The room itself was quiet, and sitting at about 33dB when not playing. I live out in the country away from large industry and traffic. The occasional car driving by outside brought the dB readings in my room up to about 52dB.

In all examples I was way over blowing and putting as much air through my horn as possible without regard to tone quality. I'm talking even more than marching band levels of obnoxious here.

I still contend that even a full time orchestra trumpet player couldn't produce 130+db, even on a good day.

[Chris Hindle]

I've just spent some time playing my saxophones today, alto, tenor, and soprano. I know it's not the best test in the world, but on the Studio Six dB meter C weighted, slow response, on my iPad, I was able to peg the meter at about 101dB with my alto and tenor approximately 18" away. On my soprano, playing low Bb (the bottom of the horn) and pointed right into the mic on the iPad I was able to peg the meter at 102.7dB, we're talking just a few inches from the mic. The room itself was quiet, and sitting at about 33dB when not playing. I live out in the country away from large industry and traffic. The occasional car driving by outside brought the dB readings in my room up to about 52dB.

Thank's for the Reality Check Justice.
Nice to see real numbers at work.
Chris.

[John Roberts {JR}]

There is documented hearing loss in drummers (aka cymbal ear) from the crash cymbals being located a few feet from their (right) ear. A self inflicted wound. 

Of course cymbals have much HF content, so not exactly apples and oranges.

JR

[Mark Cadwallader]

The theory of the medico-legal case was that damage was caused by a momentary spike in SPL that caused the injury in an instant.  The case was not that there was a long-term exposure that caused this individual's hearing loss and medical condition.

As such, a "slow" reading would not be relevent to the case, only an instantaneous SPL measurement would be.  (As per the cited news article, at least.)

[John Roberts {JR}]

The theory of the medico-legal case was that damage was caused by a momentary spike in SPL that caused the injury in an instant.  The case was not that there was a long-term exposure that caused this individual's hearing loss and medical condition.

As such, a "slow" reading would not be relevent to the case, only an instantaneous SPL measurement would be.  (As per the cited news article, at least.)

Another factor could be whether the loud sound was unexpected or anticipated. There are muscles inside our ears that can modulate sound transmission.

JR

[Dave Garoutte]

There is documented hearing loss in drummers (aka cymbal ear) from the crash cymbals being located a few feet from their (right) ear. A self inflicted wound. 

Of course cymbals have much HF content, so not exactly apples and oranges.

JR

I think drummer hearing loss is exacerbated by the constant impulses (oxymoron) generated by those pesky sticks.

[Lee Buckalew]

And speaking of amplification...who here has ever been to a rock concert that was 130+dB? Anyone? Sure they get loud, 110dB easy, 115. And we've all seen the retarded riders that spec a sound system capable of outputting 120dB at the FOH mix position. But how often has that ever been done, even if the system is capable of it? But getting to 130dB? That's a seriously powerful system, and would take an enormous amount of energy and amplifiers to achieve.

Here is a link to a site listing some of the highest levels recorded at concerts.  I don't know where the measurements were taken relative to the stage. 

http://www.thecavanproject.com/13-loudest-bands-ever/

Lee

[Justice C. Bigler]

Here is a link to a site listing some of the highest levels recorded at concerts.  I don't know where the measurements were taken relative to the stage. 

http://www.thecavanproject.com/13-loudest-bands-ever/

Lee

I mean c'mon. 142dB? Does anyone believe that that measurement was taken anywhere in the audience? And if so, was it from just the PA? The pryo? or the 100,000 screaming fans?


142db would have done permanent hearing damage and likely broken people's ear drums 15dB ago.

[Helge A Bentsen]

I mean c'mon. 142dB? Does anyone believe that that measurement was taken anywhere in the audience? And if so, was it from just the PA? The pryo? or the 100,000 screaming fans?


142db would have done permanent hearing damage and likely broken people's ear drums 15dB ago.

A few years ago, one of the major national news papers over here ran the headline: «Band plays 142dB at the Quart festival».

Turns out the reporter had a radio shack dBmeter and was standing between the barricades and the PA pointing the dB-meter straight at it....

[Keith Broughton]

Nothing to see here..as I apparently can't read properly

[Art Welter]

142db would have done permanent hearing damage and likely broken people's ear drums 15dB ago.

But 142 dB won't win any dB drag racing competitions except in the lower power classes.

Records of 180+dB have been recorded!

[Dave Garoutte]

Yeah, but in which section of the orchestra does the Top Fuel driver sit?

[Lee Buckalew]

I mean c'mon. 142dB? Does anyone believe that that measurement was taken anywhere in the audience? And if so, was it from just the PA? The pryo? or the 100,000 screaming fans?


142db would have done permanent hearing damage and likely broken people's ear drums 15dB ago.

If I am remembering correctly, and I may be a bit fuzzy, there are professionally recorded levels exceeding 150dB/SPL C weighted at mix position at some EDM festivals. 
Doug Fowler may be able to shed some light on this as I seem to recall him saying that Ultrafest was exceedingly loud one year when he was onsite providing tuning.

It is quite routine to, when tuning and setting limiters, have subs at a level that causes vision to blur.

Lee

[Art Welter]

If I am remembering correctly, and I may be a bit fuzzy, there are professionally recorded levels exceeding 150dB/SPL C weighted at mix position at some EDM festivals. 
Doug Fowler may be able to shed some light on this as I seem to recall him saying that Ultrafest was exceedingly loud one year when he was onsite providing tuning.

Lee,
In 2013, Doug wrote "Going Deeper: 25 Hz Is The New 50 Hz", but  you won't find any records of 150 dB at the mix position for any EDM festival unless the mix takes place in the cabin of a vehicle ;^)

Art

[Lee Buckalew]

Lee,
In 2013, Doug wrote "Going Deeper: 25 Hz Is The New 50 Hz", but  you won't find any records of 150 dB at the mix position for any EDM festival unless the mix takes place in the cabin of a vehicle ;^)

Art

Art,
I am not saying that Doug gave those figures but he had some measurements from an Ultrafest one year I thought that could shed some light on a realistic C Weighted figure for an EDM event.  His measurements were not given here on PSW but were given in an AES regional summit if I am remembering correctly.

Lee

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