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Author Topic: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?  (Read 1777 times)

Dave Scarlett

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2019, 09:35:18 pm »

I don't think going mono should by nature reduce your volume.
Your software may be doing something, or you have a polarity or phase issue.

Quite right. Two identical signals at the same volume, 180 degrees out of phase, and summed mono effectively cancel each other.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2019, 10:27:22 pm »

I don't think going mono should by nature reduce your volume.
Your software may be doing something, or you have a polarity or phase issue.

This is where I was headed, Dave and Dave.

Stuart, this test requires you to be exactly centered, acoustically, between your monitors.  Pick any Sting album and play a track in stereo, then sum it to mono.  If the level drops in the center of the image, and especially if the LF now is missing in the center but is present if you move on axis to only one monitor at a time, you have a polarity flip either in software; your DA conversion, or the wiring between your computer/DAW and monitor amp, or in the wiring between the amp output and monitor speaker.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Art Welter

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2019, 12:53:55 am »


So the crux of my question is - is the way I am listening in mono an accurate representation of a club/concert signal ?
eg. If I have some hats panned full left and some shakers panned full right when I hit mono I will hear them both at about half the volume and of course it sounds incorrect. I was wondering if crossovers or whatever does summing in a club set up do this in the same way or in a different way so that you would hear both at a reasonable level, some special way of taking a mono signal from stereo tracks ?
Stuart,

The way you are hearing pans is dependent on the architecture law the mixer or DAW was designed to provide,  a +6, +4.5 or +3 dB hard pan function, and where in the "panorama" you happen to be seated. Each "law" will result in a different mono summation.

"Half the volume" would imply a -10 dB loss, as + or -10 dB at 1kHz sounds half as loud to most peoples hearing. That don't fit the laws, you busted ;^).

Panned signals phase coherency will affect their level when summed, a "small room stereo reverb" on a hard panned channel might cause it to drop in overall level when summed mono, while sounding brilliant in stereo.

A fun experiment in exposing mono non-compatible mixes is to center the L/R, then reverse polarity on either- what got lost when summed may now be loudest!

Only L/R difference information will be heard through the summed reversed polarity pair, exposing poor stereo mic positions and effects, or anything panned. 

I can remember playing a James Brown track that had the polarity of his vocal track inverted L/R- it completely disappeared when summed mono, when polarity was reversed on one channel, the vocal appeared and most everything else was gone. OOPS- somebody let that get by- probably when it was "re-mixed" from mono for stereo.

Art

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Stuart Branson

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2019, 11:52:12 am »

I don't think going mono should by nature reduce your volume.
Your software may be doing something, or you have a polarity or phase issue.
In modern music Mono will 99% of the time reduce the volume or perceived volume in a stereo mix simply because anything that is located at the Sides of the mix is lost, it is not moved to the centre.
I tested many tracks looking at the db output in Stereo and mono and found only 1 piece of (classical) music that kept the exact same db level when put into mono but still had a stereo feel.  Most lost 1 to 2 db. I am aiming  for .5db
If you listen for example to ibizaliveradio.com they have made their signal very wide and although most of their content still sounds good in Mono if you flick back and forth the difference is very noticeable


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Stuart Branson

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2019, 12:01:53 pm »

Thanks all
I do understand about phase issues , I dont have those
I have a Pan pot option on my daw and placing L and R to the centre produces the same result as my Mono plugins, so they are doing what one would expect.
I have it set to -6db pan law to get approx the same volume when in Mono, otherwise it actually gets louder
I am simply interested in how a large club or festival set up puts out the LR signals and when / how the signal gets summed to Mono which it undoubtedly does.
Many thanks
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 12:22:11 pm by Stuart Branson »
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Art Welter

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2019, 04:41:20 pm »

I am simply interested in how a large club or festival set up puts out the LR signals and when / how the signal gets summed to Mono which it undoubtedly does.
L/R are routed L/R, typically zones desired to be a mono sum of those are sent from a matrix which can be derived either in the console or DSP processor, or a combination of both.
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Craig Hauber

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2019, 11:17:08 pm »


I am simply interested in how a large club or festival set up puts out the LR signals and when / how the signal gets summed to Mono which it undoubtedly does.
Many thanks
In my designs the L & R outputs from the DJ are sent directly to a DSP.  (Ashly for budget jobs or Q-Sys for big ones) Main dance speakers are usually kept stereo, but for 4-corner dance areas they are L&R front then opposite for the rear, so if you are sideways you still get "stereo".  Same with giant spaces with many stacks, it's L, R, L, R, L, R all around the dance/audience space. 

Auxiliary spaces with fill speakers are summed in the DSP matrix (hallways, vip lounges, lobby, bars, bathrooms etc..

There's usually such a blend of sound bouncing from so many different locations in a large club that most patrons are experiencing it in mono anyways. 

Try sliding your studio monitor speakers adjacent to each other then go stand and listen as far back from them as your room allows, this is what your mixes will sound like in 90% of the available space in a large club.  Only the people dead-center between stacks will experience the most stereo-ish mix -and even that's tainted by the sound blasting from behind them as well as the booth monitors if they are on and cranked.

And don't waste your time panning sub frequencies, in any indoor space they are summed mono acoustically and you are just wasting power trying to do it.  (After experiencing DJ's trying to do such things I usually mono-sum the subbass now in the facility DSP anyways)
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Craig Hauber
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Stuart Branson

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2019, 12:10:16 pm »

"Half the volume" would imply a -10 dB loss, as + or -10 dB at 1kHz sounds half as loud to most peoples hearing. That don't fit the laws, you busted ;^).

My main issue is with the strings I use but I have determined that its down to the way they are recorded, they are made to sound wide and Lush for sale purposes but are not really practical for my dance music productions
I uploaded a small sample here - if you listen then hit mono you should here about 50% of them disappear - https://www.filehosting.org/file/details/790930/Strings%20Demo.wav

I can remember playing a James Brown track that had the polarity of his vocal track inverted L/R- it completely disappeared when summed mono, when polarity was reversed on one channel, the vocal appeared and most everything else was gone. OOPS- somebody let that get by- probably when it was "re-mixed" from mono for stereo.
I think some people use this method to extract acapella vocals from songs to make their own mixes, sometimes it works well , sometimes not depends on the fx on the vocals.
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Stuart Branson

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2019, 12:25:04 pm »

In my designs ....
Thanks for your answer it makes sense that venues try to use a mix of stereo and mono throughout.
It would explain why modern music doesn't seem to be afraid to go wide !
I expect that if the speakers are pumping out stereo, even the people who are not centered, which as you said is most people, will still hear most of what the producer intended much better than if the whole track was summed to mono everywhere.
I may try the opposite of what you said and put my 2 speakers on opposite sides of my room to see how they sound lol .

Don't worry all my sounds under 80/90 hz are mono in all my tracks.
With modern mid side eq plugins you can basically choose what frequencies go where in your mix - front / back, left / right.
Thanks again
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DAN PROSSEDA

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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2019, 03:23:59 pm »

Thanks for your answer it makes sense that venues try to use a mix of stereo and mono throughout.
It would explain why modern music doesn't seem to be afraid to go wide !
I expect that if the speakers are pumping out stereo, even the people who are not centered, which as you said is most people, will still hear most of what the producer intended much better than if the whole track was summed to mono everywhere.
I may try the opposite of what you said and put my 2 speakers on opposite sides of my room to see how they sound lol .

Don't worry all my sounds under 80/90 hz are mono in all my tracks.
With modern mid side eq plugins you can basically choose what frequencies go where in your mix - front / back, left / right.
Thanks again



 Craig. +1 regarding dance club systems. The main stacks are alternate L R L R (etc) so everyone on the dance floor is immersed in stereo. Any zone systems should be in mono.
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Re: How do club systems dicipher my stereo music productions ?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2019, 03:23:59 pm »


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