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Author Topic: Options for switching between consoles?  (Read 1767 times)

Cory Chenoweth

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Options for switching between consoles?
« on: March 25, 2019, 05:20:45 pm »

Hi All,

Looking for options to manage console switching?

I frequently get called to be the "house" Tech/A1 (on concert nights) for a local venue. The venue's system is configured for 5 drive lines (Left, Right, Sub, Front/Center Fill, Delay). With many regional and national acts carrying their own consoles these days, was looking for simpler option to manage change over from support acts to headliner. Cross patching 5 lines isn't hard, but being able to leave things patched from sound-check, and just toggle some switches or push a button, would be even easier.

I'm familiar with APB's MixSwitch, but would need 2 MixSwitches to cover the 5 drive lines. I can't justify the cost of 1 MixSwitch let alone 2. Curious what other options are out there?

Running the visiting consoles through the "house" console is an option. But venue practice has been to give the headliner the drive lines.

Thought about building a little 5ch splitter box. But then question whether I should ISO the split? How could I incorporate on/off type toggle switch(s)?

Appreciate your input.

For those interested, venue's systems is made up of: 6 HDL20 L/R hangs, 2 HDL20 center/front fill, 6 8006-AS Subs. M32's FOH & MON.

-Cory
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2019, 05:36:08 pm »

What type of DSP does the venue have to handle processing for that rig?

You may be able to utilize extra inputs on the DSP and have a preset that just changes the input patch.

If there are no open inputs, it could spark a discussion about expandability, or if there is no DSP, it provides a starting point.
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Phillip Ivan Pietruschka

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2019, 05:43:04 pm »

Hi All,

Looking for options to manage console switching?

I frequently get called to be the "house" Tech/A1 (on concert nights) for a local venue. The venue's system is configured for 5 drive lines (Left, Right, Sub, Front/Center Fill, Delay). With many regional and national acts carrying their own consoles these days, was looking for simpler option to manage change over from support acts to headliner. Cross patching 5 lines isn't hard, but being able to leave things patched from sound-check, and just toggle some switches or push a button, would be even easier.

I'm familiar with APB's MixSwitch, but would need 2 MixSwitches to cover the 5 drive lines. I can't justify the cost of 1 MixSwitch let alone 2. Curious what other options are out there?

-Cory

I have been advised APB have ceased production whilst they undergo a restructure, so that product probably isnít on the cards either way.

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Steven Eudaly

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2019, 05:49:07 pm »

A relatively simple dsp with enough I/O like a BSS BLU-100 would fit the bill nicely and still have extra inputs to tie in an MC mic and house music without going through a console. Should be able to find a used one for well under $1k.

TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2019, 06:55:46 pm »

Hi All,

Looking for options to manage console switching?

I frequently get called to be the "house" Tech/A1 (on concert nights) for a local venue. The venue's system is configured for 5 drive lines (Left, Right, Sub, Front/Center Fill, Delay). With many regional and national acts carrying their own consoles these days, was looking for simpler option to manage change over from support acts to headliner. Cross patching 5 lines isn't hard, but being able to leave things patched from sound-check, and just toggle some switches or push a button, would be even easier.

I'm familiar with APB's MixSwitch, but would need 2 MixSwitches to cover the 5 drive lines. I can't justify the cost of 1 MixSwitch let alone 2. Curious what other options are out there?

Running the visiting consoles through the "house" console is an option. But venue practice has been to give the headliner the drive lines.

Thought about building a little 5ch splitter box. But then question whether I should ISO the split? How could I incorporate on/off type toggle switch(s)?

Appreciate your input.

For those interested, venue's systems is made up of: 6 HDL20 L/R hangs, 2 HDL20 center/front fill, 6 8006-AS Subs. M32's FOH & MON.

-Cory
The more standard way to do this would be to drive your fills and delay off of the house DSP and have the mixer only send L&R and subs.  That gets you down to 3 lines.  A DSP with 6 inputs would solve that natively.  A pair of Ashly LX308B line mixers would do it too.
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Cory Chenoweth

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2019, 08:19:35 pm »

What type of DSP does the venue have to handle processing for that rig?

No outboard DSP. Only processing is what's in the RCF speakers and the consoles feeding rig.
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2019, 09:30:01 pm »

A relatively simple dsp with enough I/O like a BSS BLU-100 would fit the bill nicely and still have extra inputs to tie in an MC mic and house music without going through a console. Should be able to find a used one for well under $1k.
Cory,
Do not under estimate the value of having BGM and MC mics independent of the mixing console.   

Nearly every serious touring group I have worked with was natively setup for Left-Right-Sub-Front.   I would try to get your setup to this configuration if possible.   It also bumps you into being able to use a second hand mix switch if you didn't want to go the DSP route.   

Steven's idea of using a BSS BLU is solid.  I know a handful of guys that are using 806's for console switching.  A single frame can have you switching between dante, two analog desks (or AES), and having BGM and MC mics. It's also expandable many many times over with additional linked frames.  With a simple control panel you can select your desk, adjust volumes of MC and BGMs from a single 1RU plate.   Hell, my control panel has toggles for when a touring engineer wants to run subs from LR or doesn't have a front fill send and those need to come from the LR too. I can show some pictures if anyone is interested.
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John P. Farrell

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2019, 09:32:38 pm »


I'm familiar with APB's MixSwitch, but would need 2 MixSwitches to cover the 5 drive lines. I can't justify the cost of 1 MixSwitch let alone 2. Curious what other options are out there?


What is driving the delay line?  As a traveling BE who carries everything but racks and stacks, at the venue level you describe I usually have no problem with seeing L/R/Sub/FF and having things like delays distributed via venue processing if there is level and eq control available. 

To be fair I also carry 8 channels of LM44 with me but even without that luxury I think your best option is to drive the delay via DSP after the mix switch, or have a preset in said DSP where you can switch inputs but that's likely more costly if your current DSP doesn't support 10+ inputs.

The mix switch is also handy to leave house music going or have an RF MC mic available for announcements or emergencies. 

JF
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2019, 09:52:54 pm »

The venue's system is configured for 5 drive lines (Left, Right, Sub, Front/Center Fill, Delay).

{big snip}

For those interested, venue's systems is made up of: 6 HDL20 L/R hangs, 2 HDL20 center/front fill, 6 8006-AS Subs. M32's FOH & MON.

-Cory

So what does the delay line drive?  Is that a provisional thing, or perhaps implemented as a green room/DR/etc feed?

edit ps- John and Blackberry Smoke came through one of our venues recently, always good to put faces with names.  It was a good day at the office and a fun show.  Thanks, John! 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 09:58:27 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Don T. Williams

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2019, 11:33:57 pm »

I really like the Radial Engineering SW4, but its not inexpensive.  The advantage it could have over used DSP is the transformer isolation.  Yes transformers can have their on issues, but I've had zero issues with my SW4 and it has solved more than one ground problem.  Still only 4 channels, but where does your delay line go?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 12:35:30 am »

My plan a decade ago was a bunch of Yamaha Mini-YGDAI cards in a DME-series mixer.  Lots of analog & AES for artist desks and local playback/VOG/emcee (awkward interface) but was very,very flexible.  Never built it as the gigs I was designing for ended up un-financed.

Today I'd look at the BSS mentioned up-thread.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

MikeHarris

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 03:40:04 am »

BSS has been our go to DSP for years..reluctant to get on board with Q-Sys as was never fond of either their amps or speakers...but for about the same $ as Blu100 there is a similar Symetrix with Dante.
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Chuck Augustowski

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2019, 11:00:49 pm »

I have been advised APB have ceased production whilst they undergo a restructure, so that product probably isnít on the cards either way.

The MixSwitch should once again be available during the second half of the year.  Chris at Chris@LienauAV.com may still have a number of new MixSwitch units available for sale.
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Cory Chenoweth

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2019, 04:23:40 pm »

Sorry for the delayed response. Thanks to all for your replies.

 Bare with me, but a little venue history may help clarify.

Venue started out as neighborhood bar at one end of a shopping strip. Over the past 30 years, it has expanded 3-4 times to now accommodate approx. 2500 patrons. Last expansion (2009) took over space with ~30ft ceiling height. This same expansion added new stage (at this end of the club), new dance floor, new bars, etc. They also added a completely separate DJ booth and system to cover this new section and dance floor. To get playback to the legacy sections, they ran a line back to the legacy DJ booth / system. Added a second line for the bands to send feed to the legacy DJ booth/system.

Fast forward to 2017, venue expanded main stage and purchased the RCF rig and M32 consoles. To be clear, DJ system has no connection into the RCF rig what so ever. RCF rig is for band use only. All playback music pre-show, during change overs, and post show, are via DJ System. Being a completely separate DJ System from the legacy DJ System, it can be turned off when the bands are playing.

Back to the delay feed. As mentioned earlier, this latest section (where stage and RCF rig are) has ~30ft ceiling height. However, it only accounts for approx. 1/3 of the venue. The remaining 2/3's of the venue has ~12ft ceiling height. There is a cinder block wall separating this "new section" from the old, minus where they knocked out to expand. So, the RCF rig is only really covering 1/3 of the club. To get audio to the back 2/3, need to send a AUX or Matrix feed to the old legacy DJ Systems. There is very little processing for the legacy DJ System (analog xover, mono 31band EQ, 1U line mixer to somewhat control zone levels).

When I work there, I send a Matrix feed and time align to the first DJ system speaker that is approx. 20ft behind mix position.

I've attached a pic that may help you visualize. Pic taken with my back against upstage wall.

-Cory
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John P. Farrell

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2019, 08:35:58 pm »

edit ps- John and Blackberry Smoke came through one of our venues recently, always good to put faces with names.  It was a good day at the office and a fun show.  Thanks, John!

Great meeting with you and working together.  Let's do it again sometime!
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2019, 09:44:06 pm »

Sorry for the delayed response. Thanks to all for your replies.

 Bare with me, but a little venue history may help clarify.

Venue started out as neighborhood bar at one end of a shopping strip. Over the past 30 years, it has expanded 3-4 times to now accommodate approx. 2500 patrons. Last expansion (2009) took over space with ~30ft ceiling height. This same expansion added new stage (at this end of the club), new dance floor, new bars, etc. They also added a completely separate DJ booth and system to cover this new section and dance floor. To get playback to the legacy sections, they ran a line back to the legacy DJ booth / system. Added a second line for the bands to send feed to the legacy DJ booth/system.

Fast forward to 2017, venue expanded main stage and purchased the RCF rig and M32 consoles. To be clear, DJ system has no connection into the RCF rig what so ever. RCF rig is for band use only. All playback music pre-show, during change overs, and post show, are via DJ System. Being a completely separate DJ System from the legacy DJ System, it can be turned off when the bands are playing.

Back to the delay feed. As mentioned earlier, this latest section (where stage and RCF rig are) has ~30ft ceiling height. However, it only accounts for approx. 1/3 of the venue. The remaining 2/3's of the venue has ~12ft ceiling height. There is a cinder block wall separating this "new section" from the old, minus where they knocked out to expand. So, the RCF rig is only really covering 1/3 of the club. To get audio to the back 2/3, need to send a AUX or Matrix feed to the old legacy DJ Systems. There is very little processing for the legacy DJ System (analog xover, mono 31band EQ, 1U line mixer to somewhat control zone levels).

When I work there, I send a Matrix feed and time align to the first DJ system speaker that is approx. 20ft behind mix position.

I've attached a pic that may help you visualize. Pic taken with my back against upstage wall.

-Cory

Now or previously a Graham Central operation?
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Cory Chenoweth

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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2019, 01:19:07 am »

Now or previously a Graham Central operation?

No, never a Graham Central Station. But I've worked plenty GCS's over the years and see why you would ask. Opened as Mo's Place, Katy, Tx. Celebrated 31st anniversary last Saturday.
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Re: Options for switching between consoles?
¬ę Reply #16 on: March 29, 2019, 01:19:07 am ¬Ľ


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