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Author Topic: Setting up gain for flash memory recorder.  (Read 479 times)

Dave Manini

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Setting up gain for flash memory recorder.
« on: March 22, 2019, 10:14:21 pm »

I have a Allen&Heath ZED-428 and Marantz flash recorder. We have a working setup for morning worship and a means to record a message from the pulpit mic -but during an event what we hear vs what we record is certainly not a match. In the past to overcome this I would use a CD recorder placed strategically close enough to the stage to pick up the actual voices along with the live sound but I'd like to create a decent recording at the mixer.
 
I bravely played some brown noise via a CD player down the paths of two channels and was able to achieve a record level almost to 0db on the output displays. The problem is if I input some brown noise into each live mic (using a sound pressure gauge to match given level) it becomes almost useless since the users/singers are far behind them during an event. I can't bring up the levels to match the CD baseline in this case. I only have the choice to set the gain on the CD player such that it maxes out around -30db. I'm not quite sure how to approach this issue other than to set the gain during a live rehearsal. If that's the only option it's difficult since some of the voices will not be present till the event.

I don't need perfection but would like to obtain enough control at the mixer to balance out the audio for a decent recording. I don't have noise cancelling headphones but I do have a pair of Koss Pro4AA that provide some isolation to monitor the recorder.

I have two Aux channels I use for the recording levels but I'm only off the start trying to figure out the simplest method to achieve my result.

Is one solution to simple reduce the recording levels on the board for the 'soundtraks' and pull the voices in by raising their respective levels?

Any help appreciated.
Thanks
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Luke Geis

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Re: Setting up gain for flash memory recorder.
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2019, 02:24:52 am »

I don't quite understand what you're trying to do? Are you trying to make a VOG or stinger recording, or are you trying to record an entire board mix to play back later that the band plays along with?

Anything you desire to mix, should be placed on a channel so it can then be mixed. If you are trying to record the whole show, simply utilize one of the matrices sends and adjust its send level to the recorder to taste. The send from the recorder or CD player should be going to a channel as I mentioned so it can be mixed.

Need a little more detail or a better explanation of what you are trying to do to really say though. If everything is going to a channel as it should be, there should be no problem mixing as need be. 
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Dave Manini

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Re: Setting up gain for flash memory recorder.
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2019, 12:37:47 pm »

I don't quite understand what you're trying to do? Are you trying to make a VOG or stinger recording, or are you trying to record an entire board mix to play back later that the band plays along with?

Anything you desire to mix, should be placed on a channel so it can then be mixed. If you are trying to record the whole show, simply utilize one of the matrices sends and adjust its send level to the recorder to taste. The send from the recorder or CD player should be going to a channel as I mentioned so it can be mixed.

Need a little more detail or a better explanation of what you are trying to do to really say though. If everything is going to a channel as it should be, there should be no problem mixing as need be.
    Simple replies at this point is probably best. Let's go with recording a show. I have matrix options on my mixer but haven't used them, and don't know if they are set up to send to the Recorder.
Additionally I'm not using any effects or Insert input/options.  I'm trying to supply 'visitors' with a copy of what they heard/experienced be it a play, musical, or band with vocals. We're not talking Dolby here-just a replication of what an audience would experience to the best of my/our ability. Though I have professional software that can do alot post- I'd rather capture a faithful recording on the fly the first time. We're equipped with Instrumental mics as well as some of the best SHURE series. We're using (at the moment) pre-created soundtraks developed off a Yamaha keyboard providing the background for the singers. We've had guest professional singers that loved our flexible setup requiring them to just specify what they wanted and where. Three times a year we have a up to a 30 member choir singing 45 minute cantatas for Holidays with one or two Narrators. What's a good start point? I wish we had a sound room but we're mixing in the same room so isolation is sketchy and I'm sure costly in terms of results. Just want to hand out some quality Mpgs or CDs like some Mega Churches do. We have Video but the mics are on camera and limited in response. The room is about 60' x 40' x 20ft+ ceiling. Sound bounces everywhere acoustically. 
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Setting up gain for flash memory recorder.
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2019, 01:01:53 pm »

     Just want to hand out some quality Mpgs or CDs like some Mega Churches do. We have Video but the mics are on camera and limited in response.

I once made the statement to my pastor "to do what they do, you have to do what they do".  Meaning, if you want professional results you have to use professional methods/equipment to the best if your ability.

We get quality recordings in our church all of the time-but I use a matrix (or aux send) to create a recording mix.  Our piano is a 9ft grand-large for our auditorium.  If I tried to bring it up enough in the main mix to get a good recording it would way over power the room-so we keep it low in the main mix,a little more in the monitors and mix it to taste in the record send.  That is in principle what the mega churches do-they create a separate record mix. 

We do not have a separate room-admittedly it would make mixing the record feed easier-at the sacrifice of the live mix. There is a way I get around this-but explaining would confuse you.  First, you need to learn to use and undertand using the aux or matrix sends to get a separate recording mix-that would be a better use of your time and energy than building a separate room.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 01:07:19 pm by Stephen Swaffer »
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Steve Swaffer

Rob Spence

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Re: Setting up gain for flash memory recorder.
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2019, 01:06:25 pm »

In general, at a live performance, not everything the audience hears is from the PA. If fact, the PA is simply reinforcing the sounds that are not sufficient.
So, recording the output of the mixer is going to be lacking anything in the performance that is loud enough as is.
The rest will be at levels varying by what needs boosting.

A fix for this is to send post fader aux sends to some aux busses, then, to a matrix, then to the recorder.
You could have a drum buss one for vocals etc.
Listen to each buss and adjust the sends to get what you need.


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Luke Geis

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Re: Setting up gain for flash memory recorder.
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2019, 06:14:56 pm »

In this case you need to use a mix of sends to a matrix. The matrix is the best way to go, as you can generally send it auxiliary mixes, subgroups and the main mix as desired. The Matrix is a separate mix that is designed to mix the levels of mix busses that are on the mixer. This allows you to pull sound from the main mix and any other mix as a totally separate mix for such things as recording or other rooms in the building.

Not knowing exactly how many monitor mixes you are utilizing, I would still use the matrix and send the main mix to it and then put things like the drums and instruments on a subgroup or spare auxiliary that you can then bring up or down in the Matrix as needed. The main FOH mix will provide you with the needed vocal content and then the mix busses can give you the rest for the recording side of things. As for monitoring the recording mix, you don't really need super wazo headphones, just listen at a relatively high level and you can tell rather quickly what's there and not. If you AFL the main mix and then the matrix mix, you will be able to tell right away what's up.
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Dave Manini

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Re: Setting up gain for flash memory recorder.
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2019, 10:59:20 pm »

In this case you need to use a mix of sends to a matrix. The matrix is the best way to go, as you can generally send it auxiliary mixes, subgroups and the main mix as desired. The Matrix is a separate mix that is designed to mix the levels of mix busses that are on the mixer. This allows you to pull sound from the main mix and any other mix as a totally separate mix for such things as recording or other rooms in the building.

Not knowing exactly how many monitor mixes you are utilizing, I would still use the matrix and send the main mix to it and then put things like the drums and instruments on a subgroup or spare auxiliary that you can then bring up or down in the Matrix as needed. The main FOH mix will provide you with the needed vocal content and then the mix busses can give you the rest for the recording side of things. As for monitoring the recording mix, you don't really need super wazo headphones, just listen at a relatively high level and you can tell rather quickly what's there and not. If you AFL the main mix and then the matrix mix, you will be able to tell right away what's up.
     Some excellent suggestions here.  I don't know how to reply to all people since my last entry but there's enough information to get me 'home'. The terms Mix + Matrix were used several times-even in the same sentences and it still made sense  ;D  I will need time to process the above and run the experiments which will take some time and will return with the results.  Many Thanks, Dave
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Re: Setting up gain for flash memory recorder.
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2019, 10:59:20 pm »


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