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Author Topic: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build  (Read 2312 times)

brian maddox

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Re: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2019, 08:59:42 pm »

I'd much rather have a know path with hooks or troughs to run through than try to fit the connectors of a long multi through conduit.

Mac

Most ideal, yes.

For both House AND Touring techs there is also a LOT to be said for allowing the touring act to pull their own wire.  If there is a failure, this totally prevents the inevitable wasted time while each points at the other and says "it must be your wire/gear!" and you can get on with the business of actually fixing the problem.  And everybody gets to go home still friends.  Win, Win!
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jason misterka

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Re: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2019, 05:59:45 am »

Gary,

I don't know your market,  but 300 cap theater is a SMALL house.  I help manage production at a 260 cap house in a 60,000 pop town, and have since 1998.

Tours coming through a venue of that size will  NOT be carrying large format analog desks and require W4. They have to fit that in vans and trailers and so they switched over to digital as soon as they were able. Half of them are carrying X32 racks and running an iPod these days.

People are correct that you do want to have a safe path to stage.  It doesn't need to be conduit if that won't work, you can even run the cable along a wall and have a trough wherever it crosses aisles if you have to.

I did install 5 or 6 house Cat5e runs, which we use for the current house desk and have some available for guests, which they appreciate.

I guess if budget is no object, fine, get analog installed too but you may never use it at this point. Rather spend that money on better speakers or a really nice mic cabinet with a really really nice lock.

In fact, it has been a few years now since we (production company) have stopped providing 48ch analog at our larger festivals.  We do provide 4 or 6 Cat5e for guests, which are used by several acts each day typically.

Lastly, like you, I am a fan of the SQ desk. Yes, lots of people know M32 but they are also cheap enough they can carry their own if it is crucial for a 300 cap venue.

Jason
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Gary Fitzpatrick

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Re: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2019, 06:09:42 am »



Gary,

I don't know your market,  but 300 cap theater is a SMALL house.  I help manage production at a 260 cap house in a 60,000 pop town, and have since 1998.

Tours coming through a venue of that size will  NOT be carrying large format analog desks and require W4. They have to fit that in vans and trailers and so they switched over to digital as soon as they were able. Half of them are carrying X32 racks and running an iPod these days.

People are correct that you do want to have a safe path to stage.  It doesn't need to be conduit if that won't work, you can even run the cable along a wall and have a trough wherever it crosses aisles if you have to.

I did install 5 or 6 house Cat5e runs, which we use for the current house desk and have some available for guests, which they appreciate.

I guess if budget is no object, fine, get analog installed too but you may never use it at this point. Rather spend that money on better speakers or a really nice mic cabinet with a really really nice lock.

In fact, it has been a few years now since we (production company) have stopped providing 48ch analog at our larger festivals.  We do provide 4 or 6 Cat5e for guests, which are used by several acts each day typically.

Lastly, like you, I am a fan of the SQ desk. Yes, lots of people know M32 but they are also cheap enough they can carry their own if it is crucial for a 300 cap venue.

Jason

Thanks everyone for your input. I'm thinking of running a hybrid approach... I'll run 8 lines of shielded cat 6 to four twin points at various points on the stage.
I think I will also run a 16 channel analogue multi as well.
DMX will be covered seperatly.

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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2019, 12:39:18 pm »

I was just coming up with a generic list for cable runs that would cover audio/video/lighting for the remaining future of a generic building.

This is assuming the current rate of AVL integration to increase and become more network-based and more data.

Two 4" conduit
6 strand SM fiber
Four coax 1694a
16ch multicore
4-8 Cat6A lines

Maybe LMR400

And for a 150ft run isn't too costly (~2k parts + labor)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 03:39:23 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2019, 01:38:33 pm »

Based on 20+ years as an IATSE stagehand, putting and and taking out Shows You've Heard Of I will say these things -

1)  The show WILL NOT pull through conduit unless said conduit is large enough to crawl through...
 If you're a medium size dog.  Getting a W4 or RamLatch stuck will not improve your day.

2)  The show WILL NOT use your analog snake and likely will not use your CAT5.  Why?  Because any failure, glitch or problem will be "owned" by the theater and the tour tech possibly fired for using it.

3)  Music tours (Bands You've Almost Heard Of) might use your CATx snake especially if they'r on a tight departure schedule - not having to take up their CAT snake might save them 5-10 minutes - or their CAT cable has issues.  We see CAT cable requested on festivals to save running tour CAT through the audience after doors/gates.  Bigger acts will likely adhere to the theatre protocol of using their own stuff, exclusively.

4)  The size of your venue may change or eliminate some of the impact/use I've described.

5)  I'm a big believer in installed copper wires.  Just because every traveling show doesn't use yours does not mean it was a bad idea to install them.  Having the capability of installed infrastructure typically leads to the use of that infrastructure.

Good luck for you and your venue!
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2019, 05:20:21 pm »

Go with some drop in trough or cable path out to the FOH location. maybe make a couple from different locations to FOH and easy to get from a most a step ladder.

For your own in house use build in what you need plus some extra.

Some intercom lines to and from key locations could be handy.  You just need to pick the right "key locations"!

Don't forget a solid power tie in.

While your at it put in plenty of work / task lighting....everywhere.

Steven Eudaly

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Re: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2019, 08:29:40 pm »

When we were looking to buy our big-boy splits in 2016, I debated whether or not to get 300' 48-channel trunks for them or just stick with short, 10' and 25' trunks/fanouts assuming they would always sit on stage and just need to hit the nearby monitor console and the digital stage rack for the FOH console.

I decided to avoid the substantial cost of the analog snake and just bought a pair of splits, each with short fanouts since all of our console packages also have digital snake systems. Among the many things I was able to do with the money I didn't spend on the analog nake was build several 200-300', two and four-channel Ethercon looms which we can use for the digital audio snakes, Dante, network control, DMX, analog drive lines, etc. with the appropriate fanouts.

In the nearly three years since, we've not once been asked by a tour if we could provide an analog snake. We often get asked for the splits, but like us, they just need the short fans to hit their monitor console and digital stage box. Lately, even just last weekend, we've been getting asked quite often for two and four channel Ethercon snakes for video, DMX/Artnet and digital audio. Touring folks are getting used to it being available and figure its one less thing they have to pack up at the end of the night.

This is what we've experienced in the 750-2500 cap venue world.

Brian Jojade

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Re: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2019, 02:49:19 am »

I'm going to agree with the fact that the most crucial piece of planning is to have a path from stage to FOH.  Ideally, having a path to get to either side of the stage without having to use pull lines is what you want.  This path needs to be easily accessible for in and out.

After that, have the appropriate cable needed for your system. Again realize that the digital world is ever changing, so make it easy enough for you to swap out at some point in the future.  In a new venue, a cat 6 connection and/or fiber connection to FOH is most likely what you want.  What will be needed 20 years from now? Who knows.

Next step, and lowest in priority would be to have lines pulled for tours to use.  If you're pulling analog lines, you'd need to pull enough to matter.  Pulling 16 lines seems underwhelming.  At what situation would that be enough lines where using your FOH console that is in place isn't enough?  You might be better off just purchasing a 16 channel snake that you can hold in storage and drop in your trough if the touring act needs those channels and didn't bring their own snake for some reason.

Installing permanent cat 6 or fiber connections for touring acts sounds good in theory, but if you do, make sure that you pull redundant lines, and pull to each side of the stage for convenience.  At minimum, I'd say 4 lines to a nice patch panel in the booth.  Also, keep on hand patch cables that you know work in case the touring act didn't bring theirs.  Keep in mind the relatively short life of ethercon connections.  Many list a mating cycle life of over 1000 connections, but if abused, the life of the connection is much, much shorter.  Any corrosion that's in the touring act's cables will tear up your jacks pretty quickly too!  Be prepared with spare lines and a budget to replace the jacks every couple years if they get used heavily.
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Brian Jojade

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Cat6 or analogue multicore in new build
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2019, 02:49:19 am »


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