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[Al Rettich]

Hey everyone... Was wondering if there are other ways to achieve the same goal..

Most times (in theater) when you have two folks so close you get phasing issues, etc. when their singing face to face.. How do you prevent this?

[Russell Ault]

Hey everyone... Was wondering if there are other ways to achieve the same goal..

Most times (in theater) when you have two folks so close you get phasing issues, etc. when their singing face to face.. How do you prevent this?

Unfortunately, the only real solution is to turrn off (or at least substantially down) one of the mics. It's one of the (many) reasons that musicals are traditionally mixed line-by-line...

-Russ

[Tim McCulloch]

Loudest sound at the mic, wins.  If the sound is equally loud a both mics (or within 6 to 9dB of equal) the "tie" is the lovely flanging/phasing comb filter.

A Russell says, it's up to the console operator to "fix" this - and many another - issue.  Mixing a musical is a fast paced affair.  I think there are a couple of U of Tube videos of Broadway show mixing.

[Robert Lunceford]

Unfortunately, the only real solution is to turrn off (or at least substantially down) one of the mics. It's one of the (many) reasons that musicals are traditionally mixed line-by-line...

-Russ

But what if they are singing in unison?

I have only done one musical theater. It was a 13 show run.
There were only four singers, but when they came together, there was a huge low end feedback. I solved this problem by using the maxxbass section of a Waves MaxxBCL. I set the high pass at the upper limit and the Waves process created harmonics to fool the ear into hearing the low frequencies that had been cut.
Worked very well and made my life much easier.
I also brought in and installed my own K-Array column speakers for the run. These were another blessing.

[Justice C. Bigler]

I think there are a couple of U of Tube videos of Broadway show mixing.

Unfortunately, what's not immediately apparent on those videos is the enormous amount of design and programming work that goes in to getting the mixer into a position where he or she can mix line by line on DCAs.


You really have to know the show, and the blocking, and figure out where each mic needs to be in the mix and how to deal with the phasing effect that you get when two actors are singing right into each other's mics.


It's not easy to get there, and really the only people doing it are Broadway and high level regional theatre shows. I doubt even most college theatre programs get to the point where their mixers are doing much of it at that level. I did it with some youth operas I used to mix, and we got three rehearsals and did 2 or 3 shows, then the run ended. I was reading the score the entire time, and usually missed one or two cues each run. You just can't get there without ALOT of pre-production, tech, programming and rehearsal work.

[Eric Snodgrass]

Unfortunately, what's not immediately apparent on those videos is the enormous amount of design and programming work that goes in to getting the mixer into a position where he or she can mix line by line on DCAs.


You really have to know the show, and the blocking, and figure out where each mic needs to be in the mix and how to deal with the phasing effect that you get when two actors are singing right into each other's mics.


It's not easy to get there, and really the only people doing it are Broadway and high level regional theatre shows. I doubt even most college theatre programs get to the point where their mixers are doing much of it at that level. I did it with some youth operas I used to mix, and we got three rehearsals and did 2 or 3 shows, then the run ended. I was reading the score the entire time, and usually missed one or two cues each run. You just can't get there without ALOT of pre-production, tech, programming and rehearsal work.

Justice has hit the nail squarely on the head.  Planning, preparation, lots of time and rehearsing go into mixing a large musical.  The A1 will usually be on-book for weeks while mixing the show, learning every line in the script along the way.  It's really the only position besides Stage Manager and Musical Conductor that needs to learn the entire script in order to do the job effectively during a run of a show.  An A1 always has to be listening and adjusting during the course of a show and a show run.  IMO it's a tough skill to master. 

As for the OP's question - when the two actors get really close together, pick a mic and use that one. Be ready to bring the other mic back up when they move apart.  There is no trick to it nor any piece of gear that will fix the issue.  (The only thing that would help alleviate it would be to run an A-B p.a. system for the vocals, but I haven't seen one of those deployed for 20+ years on a touring show). 
I've found that headset and earset mics are a bit more forgiving in this situation than headworn omni lavs. 

[Miguel Dahl]

Justice has hit the nail squarely on the head.  Planning, preparation, lots of time and rehearsing go into mixing a large musical.  The A1 will usually be on-book for weeks while mixing the show, learning every line in the script along the way.  It's really the only position besides Stage Manager and Musical Conductor that needs to learn the entire script in order to do the job effectively during a run of a show.  An A1 always has to be listening and adjusting during the course of a show and a show run.  IMO it's a tough skill to master. 

As for the OP's question - when the two actors get really close together, pick a mic and use that one. Be ready to bring the other mic back up when they move apart.  There is no trick to it nor any piece of gear that will fix the issue.  (The only thing that would help alleviate it would be to run an A-B p.a. system for the vocals, but I haven't seen one of those deployed for 20+ years on a touring show). 
I've found that headset and earset mics are a bit more forgiving in this situation than headworn omni lavs.

Sometimes (I do mostly outdoor plays, with not so much time for rehearsals after audio comes in) when that happens I just as the director if they "have to" be that close to each other, it's worth a shot, some times they do not, and problem mostly solved, and some times they must. Flipping the polarity on one mic can in some situations help avoiding phase problem in the lower registry, so the voices suddenly don't sound thin, if they keep their distance more or less constant.. but higher up in the range it will still phase.

[Scott Helmke]

Unfortunately, what's not immediately apparent on those videos is the enormous amount of design and programming work that goes in to getting the mixer into a position where he or she can mix line by line on DCAs.

And practice for the mixer.  I've even given old fader banks to people to use for practice mixing before the rehearsals even start.

[Russell Ault]

As for the OP's question - when the two actors get really close together, pick a mic and use that one. Be ready to bring the other mic back up when they move apart.

If wearing head-worn lavs, I'd suggest picking the highest mic (i.e. the hairline mic on the tallest person); it takes advantage of the inverse square law, and helps to make sure that way you won't have a tall person singing a centimetre away from a short person's open mic.

I've found that headset and earset mics are a bit more forgiving in this situation than headworn omni lavs. 

This can cut both ways. Because the mics are closer to their sources, your actors have to really be in each other's faces to to produce sound within 10 dB at both mics, which means you can use both mics more. Unfortunately, when the actors are that close together, your margin for error in turning the second mic off when they get closer and then back on when they start to part is much smaller. The coverage area for two people sharing a single head-worn lav can be as much as half a metre or more (especially if you have an accommodating MD who can help balance what that mic is hearing), whereas the two-person coverage area on a headset might only be a couple centimetres.

It's not easy to get there, and really the only people doing it are Broadway and high level regional theatre shows. I doubt even most college theatre programs get to the point where their mixers are doing much of it at that level.

For what it's worth, I insist on doing full script prep (which is the most important part of prep, as far as I'm concerned) and line-by-line mixing on every musical I do, regardless of size or run-length (the last musical I worked on did 3 performances). This allows me to ensure, in real time, that only the correct mics are on, and makes dealing with technical (or balance) problems much easier (since often there's only one live mic at a time, and my finger is already on the fader). With a good script I'm usually at the point of only missing a pick-up or two after a couple of run-throughs.

Automation programming can often be done offline these days, and is really only necessary if you have more than about eight wireless mics (although I once did a show with 14 wireless mics and no automation, which is not an experience I care to repeat). If all you're doing is assigning mics to VCAs you can probably build the automation for even a big show in an hour or two. Of course, if you have time (and a real sound designer) more complicated automation cuing for things like changing input delays or re-balancing the band are great, but I rarely have those things...

-Russ

[Ike Zimbel]

Unfortunately, the only real solution is to turn off (or at least substantially down) one of the mics. It's one of the (many) reasons that musicals are traditionally mixed line-by-line...

-Russ

+1. I would just add that the way I have determined which mic to duck and which one to use is; I use the mic on the actor that has the first line after they part, or a line that is said (or sung) while turning away from the other actor.

[ProSoundWeb Community]