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Author Topic: Ground Stack Options  (Read 3548 times)

Josh Dunaway

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Ground Stack Options
« on: February 03, 2019, 03:24:41 PM »

I'm in the final planning phase of buying my new line array and am planning to start off with 8 RCF HDL 28A's (4 per side) with 2 RCF SUB 9006.  I need the ability to ground stack to facilitate lower budget / smaller events, but am not a big fan of having the subs sperated L/R 20'+ apart.

Is there any product available to elevate the 4 HDL 28A's without ground stacking them on the Subs (and not flying them).

If there is not a viable option- how bad would the separation of subs be by 20' for that powerful of sub?  Would throwing 4 KW181's in the middle minimize the effect of having the larger subs separated or just a bad idea?
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Rob Spence

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Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2019, 04:04:18 PM »

Why are you buying a dash array (little bigger than a dot)?
Four boxes does not a line make.

What is the business case since you are neither buying a line nor planning to fly it?

This could be the wrong product at the right price?

Have you used the software modeling to see how it will work in your typical use?



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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2019, 05:11:07 PM »

^^^  This.

Damn it, Santa Clause beat me to it.
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Josh Dunaway

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Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2019, 05:22:22 PM »

Why are you buying a dash array (little bigger than a dot)?
Four boxes does not a line make.

What is the business case since you are neither buying a line nor planning to fly it?

This could be the wrong product at the right price?

Have you used the software modeling to see how it will work in your typical use?



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Rob- I am well aware of the Dash Array arguments, and yes I have ran the EASE analysis.  I do plan to fly it when I can as well as I do plan this to be phase 1 of a 3 phase purchase.  I plan to have 8 boxes per side w/ 6 subs in the end.

I can see all the theory and analysis, but I need real world "been there, done that" input.

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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2019, 05:56:17 PM »

Is there any product available to elevate the 4 HDL 28A's without ground stacking them on the Subs (and not flying them).

What I can say while being agnostic to both the line array argument and the sub spacing argument is that weight and balance become a real concern here.  You're asking to put ~200 pounds above head level at least.  How are you going to get the boxes up there?  What kind of ballast are you going to use to stabilize this?  Once you get above speakers, loads, or dash arrays if you must weighing over 100 pounds, the logistics of transporting and deploying become nontrivial.  I can't imagine a situation where the added effort to stack/ballast an array in the air would be less involved than what's needed to fly the array.
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Geert Friedhof

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Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2019, 06:14:31 PM »

So you are about to drop several 10k's without figuring out the logisitics...

Oh well. To each their own.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2019, 06:25:47 PM »

Rob- I am well aware of the Dash Array arguments, and yes I have ran the EASE analysis.  I do plan to fly it when I can as well as I do plan this to be phase 1 of a 3 phase purchase.  I plan to have 8 boxes per side w/ 6 subs in the end.

I can see all the theory and analysis, but I need real world "been there, done that" input.

The real world is don't do that.  You don't do "the next level" on the box-a-month club model.

That said, I don't know your company's position in your market and I don't know what your competition is like, so if you immediately need to use the words "line array" with your clients to stay in businesses then go ahead.  You don't have a lot of options.

Officer Einstein of the Physics Police says that you need to get your PA in the air and aim it down at the audience, whether it's a line array or a not.  If you buy this Dash you will not be able to demonstrate the "advantage" of your new rig if it's on the ground.  Trust me, the "shiny, new" impressions are important.  Failing to make the maximum impression is foolish - if it doesn't get more work or allow you to charge more for the work you do, you will not be buying more array elements.  Another reason to get your shiny new dash in the air - to set your shop apart from the others that ground stack exclusively.

If you've been a 100% ground stack shop up til now, getting whatever you have up in the air will make a bigger difference than the speakers but you're unlikely to recover the costs from your clientele.  It's easier to recover some of the suspension costs when you can build them into the price of your new rig.  Again, trust me.

Jeff points out that getting stuff in the air is not trivial in terms of safety or cost.  He's correct and my experience has been that you'll spend $5k-$10k right off the bat if you are starting from scratch.  With a full extension of 24ft, the Genie ST25 is a likely option for indoor use; there are other brands, several from EU, that are marketed for this kind of use.  Up the food chain are truss/tower based lifts (Applied, among others).  Rigging to structure may be an option but is another discussion if it becomes pertinent.

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drew gandy

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Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2019, 07:51:17 PM »

I'm in the final planning phase of buying my new line array and am planning to start off with 8 RCF HDL 28A's (4 per side) with 2 RCF SUB 9006.  I need the ability to ground stack to facilitate lower budget / smaller events, but am not a big fan of having the subs sperated L/R 20'+ apart. 

Can you elaborate on why you don't like having the subs separated?  The biggest argument is usually that it causes a "power alley" with frequency based lobing throughout the audience area.  This is usually a bigger issue for outdoor shows than indoor shows of the size you might try with this size of speaker system.

Quote
Is there any product available to elevate the 4 HDL 28A's without ground stacking them on the Subs (and not flying them).

Scaffold?  Wenger stage sections?  Dummy subwoofers?  I think we need more info about this question.  Just how high do you want the RCF speakers to be?  Are you stacking on a stage or directly on punter floor level? 

Quote
If there is not a viable option- how bad would the separation of subs be by 20' for that powerful of sub?  Would throwing 4 KW181's in the middle minimize the effect of having the larger subs separated or just a bad idea?

If you have the ability to model in EASE then you probably have the ability to model in other programs that can actually model direct field into the bass range.  Danley Direct is pretty easy and straight forward for this.  See for yourself what the lobing looks like.  And go to a show and listen to other systems that are deployed this way.  There are a lot of examples!  How powerful the subs are does not play into this.  The lobing will happen regardless.  Adding subs to the center to counteract and/or even things out across the front row can sometimes help.  But it will take time to work it out and often can work against you if you don't have it dialed in. 

btw, I'm not sure what your image (apparently from an EASE model) is supposed to show.  What exactly are you comparing? 

btwII, although both Rob and Tim performed a communication no-no by not actually answering your questions but instead questioning you, they are spot on and hopefully giving you even more important info.  A stack of 4 of these boxes isn't even 4' tall and is barely taller than twice what they are wide.  Does it even look like a line array?  It will suffer from the issues discussed at length here and elsewhere concerning 'Dash' line arrays.  As Tim said, if you need to call it a line array in order to get a contract, then count your ducks carefully and more power to you.  But etc, etc. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 07:54:08 PM by drew gandy »
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Bob Faulkner

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Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2019, 09:54:10 PM »

I'm in the final planning phase of buying my new line array and am planning to start off with 8 RCF HDL 28A's (4 per side) with 2 RCF SUB 9006.  I need the ability to ground stack to facilitate lower budget / smaller events, but am not a big fan of having the subs sperated L/R 20'+ apart.

Is there any product available to elevate the 4 HDL 28A's without ground stacking them on the Subs (and not flying them).

If there is not a viable option- how bad would the separation of subs be by 20' for that powerful of sub?  Would throwing 4 KW181's in the middle minimize the effect of having the larger subs separated or just a bad idea?
When ground stacking, we use the stage for our "dash-array" and the floor for the subs.  When stage space is at a premium (like on some portable stage/trailers), we use small portable scaffolding (like what you may see at Lowes or Home Depot).  The subs always go on the floor separated by about 12' on center.  For the larger shows, the dash-array is flown. 

I have pictures, but the forum software is not allowing me to upload.

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Dave Batistig

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Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 09:12:39 AM »

Why are you buying a dash array (little bigger than a dot)?
Four boxes does not a line make.

What is the business case since you are neither buying a line nor planning to fly it?

This could be the wrong product at the right price?

Have you used the software modeling to see how it will work in your typical use?

Congrats on you decision to go with the HDL28A, it is a VERY potent box. As both an RCF dealer and user, I would be remiss if I didn't caution against ground stacking any of the array boxes in a manner other than recommended by RCF, and that is via the flybar, upside down, and pinned to the ground stack attach point on the sub. That being said, I also have ground stacked, using the fly bar, on the stage surface itself, but never more than 4 units high without being attached to the sub. 

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Ground Stack Options
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 09:12:39 AM »


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