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Author Topic: Powersoft T-series  (Read 2139 times)

Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2019, 12:07:05 pm »

Thanks!

I bet @Mike Pyle could help all of us out ;)

These look really quite nice, good value.
I want Danley/Linea amps...but the price of these Powersoft T amps makes a lot of sense to replace my hodge-podge amp setup (rmx/crown/itech).

Step above the current best value (QSC PLD series).

Yeah, I think Mike probably will be able to help.

I had a quick look at these vs QSC PLD, and it's an interesting balance. The flexibility of combining output stages on the PLD amps is certainly neat, but the Powersoft amps are half the size and put out a little more power.
I haven't checked all the processing that the PLD amps have to offer, so can't really compare there. The Powersoft amps do have some nice features, though:

- 2048 taps for custom FIR processing
- Some control and monitoring via web server - connect the amps to a network, connect a device that'll run HTML5 web pages, and you can access some pre-selected controls, including EQs, muting, delays, levels. You also get monitoring in the form of amplifier voltage output, or headroom (which gives a dB scale, and corresponds to the limiting set within the amplifier). Most smartphones will run that just fine via a browser. I have an old Android tablet (running 4.4) that just about manages it.
- Mains current limiting
- Options for digital audio, including Dante

You might well find that the T-series are good enough, and you don't need to buy the Danley amps. Worth a demo, perhaps?
If you go ahead, let us know how you get on.

Chris
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2019, 04:17:27 pm »

Yeah, I think Mike probably will be able to help.

I had a quick look at these vs QSC PLD, and it's an interesting balance. The flexibility of combining output stages on the PLD amps is certainly neat, but the Powersoft amps are half the size and put out a little more power.
I haven't checked all the processing that the PLD amps have to offer, so can't really compare there. The Powersoft amps do have some nice features, though:

- 2048 taps for custom FIR processing
- Some control and monitoring via web server - connect the amps to a network, connect a device that'll run HTML5 web pages, and you can access some pre-selected controls, including EQs, muting, delays, levels. You also get monitoring in the form of amplifier voltage output, or headroom (which gives a dB scale, and corresponds to the limiting set within the amplifier). Most smartphones will run that just fine via a browser. I have an old Android tablet (running 4.4) that just about manages it.
- Mains current limiting
- Options for digital audio, including Dante

You might well find that the T-series are good enough, and you don't need to buy the Danley amps. Worth a demo, perhaps?
If you go ahead, let us know how you get on.

Chris

Hi Chris,

The amps look nice....alternatives are growing !
I especially like the input flexibility, and processing capability.

A question about the FIR taps....
The spec sheet says 42.6ms of FIR.  At 48kHz and the customary use of impulse centering that would indicate 4096 taps.
Have you been able to confirm the tap count in Armonia?

If it's truly 2048 taps, marketing is playing games with their 42.6ms claim , IMO!
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2019, 06:02:54 pm »

Hi Mark,

They may or may not be telling the truth on the marketing stuff.

When I select the EQ tab for an amp channel on Armonia+, there's a Custom FIR button, which brings up a pop-up box saying that the custom FIR file must be 48kHz and up to 2048 taps.

However, also on the EQ tab, there are options for highpass and lowpass filtering, where you can select an "FIR" slope for each of those.
The "FIR" slope seems to be variable with frequency - higher frequencies get a steeper slope. I wonder if they've locked some of the FIR taps away for the built-in crossover slopes.

I'm hoping to rent a large space soon so I can get my PA fully dialled in with the new amps - for now I've used my previous EQ settings and selected the "FIR" crossover for the mid-high section.

Chris
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2019, 06:57:56 pm »

Hi Mark,

They may or may not be telling the truth on the marketing stuff.

When I select the EQ tab for an amp channel on Armonia+, there's a Custom FIR button, which brings up a pop-up box saying that the custom FIR file must be 48kHz and up to 2048 taps.

However, also on the EQ tab, there are options for highpass and lowpass filtering, where you can select an "FIR" slope for each of those.
The "FIR" slope seems to be variable with frequency - higher frequencies get a steeper slope. I wonder if they've locked some of the FIR taps away for the built-in crossover slopes.

I'm hoping to rent a large space soon so I can get my PA fully dialled in with the new amps - for now I've used my previous EQ settings and selected the "FIR" crossover for the mid-high section.

Chris

Thanks Chris,

I guess in fairness regarding FIR, I shouldn't say what is "marketing" .....
It's a new dimension, evolving...

IMO, there are currently two basic uses of FIR.
One is building linear phase crossovers, such as you mention with the highpass and lowpass filters.
The other is "custom" FIR filters, where you put HPF & LPF,.. and EQ, ..and phase-only adjustment.... all into one filter.

It's probably gonna take the market some time to sort out how to portray capabilities on those two fronts....

As far as linear phase crossovers....I think it's safe to say what we want to know is...
what degree of on-the-fly, time aligned, and at what orders/types,  ....does the unit offer.

And for custom filters....it's simple.....how many taps are available (at what sampling freq / freqs if multiple are available)

"FIR time" is an unfortunate way of describing either IMO...bad ju-ju  ::)
Because I think FIR is getting commonly associated (rightly or wrongly) with linear phase.
And true "FIR time" under linear phase = 1/2 the taps.
So I'd say the T-series has 21.3ms 'FIR time'.

But again...that maybe unfair to say that at the present time of spec development...
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Jasper Coolen

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2019, 08:46:27 pm »

Do tthiese new amps work good with 2 Ohm? The website shows only 4 and 8 Ohm.
http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/touring/serie-t#T604
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2019, 04:11:35 am »


IMO, there are currently two basic uses of FIR.
One is building linear phase crossovers, such as you mention with the highpass and lowpass filters.
The other is "custom" FIR filters, where you put HPF & LPF,.. and EQ, ..and phase-only adjustment.... all into one filter.


I think the difficulty is separating those two - Custom FIR filters can have linear-phase crossover slopes built-in, so it feels like one is almost a subset of the other.

I made a small attempt to reverse-engineer their FIR crossover setting, and this is what I found:
- At 500Hz, the slope is about 12dB/octave.
- With that setting, the response starts to diverge from the ideal filter slope at about 25Hz.
- On RePhase, if you assign a 12dB/octave slope 1000 taps, you also get the same divergence at about 25Hz.

My conclusion, then, is that you've probably got 1024 taps for each of the low- and high-pass filters, and then 2048 taps for custom FIR duties.

If you go on Armonia+ and set the EQ window to have a range of 0dB to -100dB, you can see many interesting things as you change the crossover frequency with the "FIR" setting. Above about 850Hz, you get a notch somewhere below the crossover frequency. At 1500Hz, there are three. A 5kHz crossover point gives 12 notches in a comb-filter-esque pattern.
All report a ruler-flat phase response across the board, though.

Do tthiese new amps work good with 2 Ohm? The website shows only 4 and 8 Ohm.
http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/touring/serie-t#T604

The spec sheet (linked in the first post) shows 2ohm usage is possible, but at best you only get a little more power than at 4ohm.
Asymmetric loading helps a little.


Chris
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2019, 11:14:18 am »




My conclusion, then, is that you've probably got 1024 taps for each of the low- and high-pass filters, and then 2048 taps for custom FIR duties.



FIR doesn't work that way.
It's not a matter of allocating X taps to the HPF, Y taps to the the LPF,  and Z taps to custom duties.
Because however many taps it takes to do X (the HPF) is generally sufficient to also cover handling the LPF and custom duties, at the same time.

Reason is:  ....the number of taps needed doubles for each octave frequency decrease, which also means it halves for each octave increase.
So if 1024 taps handles the HPF (the low end of a pass-band), then you have the whole thing covered with 1024....low-pass and custom duty as well.

Which means it makes no sense to use a separate FIR high-pass and low-pass, and also a custom FIR.
All you get is a whole lot of extra latency, and probably decreased performance.

It does make sense to have separate HPF and LPF as crossover functions, just as any good DSP has a multitude of type/order x-over options.
And it of course makes sense to provide for custom FIR, where as you first mentioned, linear-phase crossovers can be built in.

But it makes no sense, to use both built-in FIR crossovers, and custom FIR at the same time.  (unless the processor is hamstrung with a very low custom FIR tap count)
That's why I say touting 'FIR time' as a spec is slippery business.  IMO should simply be # taps @ specified sampling rate.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 01:03:03 pm by Mark Wilkinson »
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2019, 05:40:43 pm »

FIR doesn't work that way.

Fair enough, Mark. You know a lot more about how this all works than me.

I do agree that X taps at Y sampling rate would be the best way to spec these things. Perhaps an article is in order!  ::)

Cheers,
Chris
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Mike Pyle

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2019, 01:31:17 am »

I presold some of the T602s for an install based on the demo I had. They are really going to shine for portable rigs, though. Light weight, shallow chassis, XLRs, Dante, DSP, Armonia - there is a lot to like.
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Powersoft T-series
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2019, 08:53:44 pm »

I presold some of the T602s for an install based on the demo I had. They are really going to shine for portable rigs, though. Light weight, shallow chassis, XLRs, Dante, DSP, Armonia - there is a lot to like.

Word on the street is that these are the same amps as the quatrocanalli and duecanalli amplifiers, with a few added control bits.  Odd those wouldn't be used in an install over the T series.
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