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Author Topic: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?  (Read 6456 times)

Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2019, 06:41:34 pm »

In my opinion the YSub is well balanced an easy to handle. I can stack them 3 high by myself or load them into a van easely.
Itís a ęone manĽ-sub when you handle it, putting it down on the floor and back up again on itís wheels is pretty easy for one person.


Thanks Helge that's what I was hoping to hear.   Now to read up on it some more and find out how much this little kit will cost me. 
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Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2019, 06:53:38 pm »

Ara Ayrassian is who told me, but don't hold either of us to our word without talking to Ara directly ;)

I own TH118's and have demoed the TH-Mini. I love my TH118's. Wasn't able to run the mini full-tilt, they obviously sound good...

A QSC PLD 4.5 in a 1U rack with all processing internal next to your snake and 3x/4x speakon make a small killer passive system.


Thanks Nathan, yeah I didn't think SQ would be the issue with the THmini, just worried about extension but I'm going to spend some time with my current rigs at home with some aggressive HPF's around 55hz and see if I'm still happy with some pre-recorded music. Just so hard to tell without being at a gig competing with stage wash.


I'll ask you what I'm asking everyone else, ever hauled your TH118's up some stairs by yourself and lived to tell the tale?


I don't think a PLD will fit in a 1U rack, but I totally agree.  Right now my rack for that rig is a 10-space shock rack containing my iLive iDR16 with Dante card, 1RU UPS, two Crest Pro-Lite 3.0's and a QSC PLD4.2 which gives me four monitor mixes (PLD) plus one 3.0 bridged on my sub with one 3.0 as a redundant backup.  I also have four of the same monitors that are active versions so I can do 8 matching monitors with that little rack.  One Cat5 cable out to my mixer surface, power into the UPS, and XLR/speakon to/from the stage, it's pretty slick. 


My bigger rack is just a larger version of the same thing, with my idr32 mixer, pro-lite 7.5's, a distro, media player, 2 channels of wireless and DMX splitter.  I can use the Dante cards to do a split and have a separate monitor/FOH console setup with the two racks combined.


For the next "stair" gig I was going to split that 10RU rack into a pair of 4RU racks I have kicking around for the sake of portability, one with the IDR16 and UPS, and the other with the PLD and one of the Crests, and use my powered monitors so I can use the processing in the PLD as a one-channel sub amp and leave the 3.0 as a spare for emergencies.  If I went 100% powered for this Rig B thing, I could just bring that 4RU rack with the mixer and UPS which would be pretty swell.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2019, 10:07:13 pm »


Thanks Rob that's great intel, especially regarding the Growlers.  The Orbit Shifters I own are quite easy for me to move across solid ground and/or tilt into a van or onto a dock, but up 23 stairs... no thanks! 


Have you tried hauling those TH118's up any stairs by yourself?  How are the KW181's to lift and walk with?  This body has half the years on it that yours does, so if you can do it, I *should* be fine, or else I need to more closely examine other parts of my life.

Well, at this point I donít do solo gigs unless the load in is rolling cases. I donít carry the KW subs. I roll them. I can stack them if need be but drafting a bystander can work.
I donít do stairs.



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Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2019, 10:34:48 pm »

Fair enough Rob, thanks again.
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Steve Litscher

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2019, 12:46:40 am »

You touched on them briefly - the JTR C212Pro subs - and I'd like to revisit them if you don't mind.

We have six (6) of them. All are active. They are *monsters* when it comes to output for rock shows. I would strongly encourage checking them out.

The active versions weigh-in at under 75-lbs. We can run four of them on a single 20A circuit, no problems whatsoever. They have real world, usable output to 39Hz (+/-3 dB of "Jeff measurements" (i.e., under-promised and over-delivered)). They are easily moved by one person.

We run ours with Jeff's 3TXs, Yamaha's DSR112s, and RCF's NX45a and TTL6-A. They play nicely with everything. I typically LPF them at around 85Hz.

If you'd like to go passive, Jeff will happily share with you all of the recommended settings for limiting, crossover, etc.. If you decide to go active, the amplifier plate is recessed into the cabinet; it would be really easy to make a "spill deflector" if you're worried about someone spilling liquid on top of the subs. Given how good the active versions work, I wouldn't even consider passive. :-)

Four of the C212Pro are plenty for most "reasonable" outdoor gigs. I've used them in beer tents that measure 120x50 (feet), and have had plenty of headroom. Two will cover most any bar gig.

They really are great subs.

Scott Holtzman

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2019, 01:06:05 am »

Well, at this point I donít do solo gigs unless the load in is rolling cases. I donít carry the KW subs. I roll them. I can stack them if need be but drafting a bystander can work.
I donít do stairs.



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Rob,  you are 15 years older than me and still having fun and kicking ass.  I hope I can take care of myself and still have 15 good years ahead of me.

Back on topic.  The KW181's do very well for us and our clients,  they are easy to move and pack.  The problem is the next step up is a lot more boxes.

I have had a few chances to run the TH118's,  they are much cleaner, louder and lower than 4 kw181's (two a side).   The problem is you can get a lot done with those four 181's and the next step up you need more than a pair of TH118's.  I am thinking of replacing 12 Meyer 650P-R2's with 8 TH118XL's. 

I wish I could be more help,  I think that the OP is highly focused on specs when the client requirements and his logistics should dictate the purchase.



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Lou Kohley

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2019, 02:11:03 am »

My first rig was a QSC KW setup. Two 112s and two 181s. It was fine and got the job done but I was always running out of gas or just not happy with it. With stair gig I had to lift the subs or find a friends to help. Kind of cumbersome.

I picked up a smaller Danley system used, mostly because of all the buzz around the SM80 and 118  on this forum. The rig was SM60s and TH112s. I loved the sound of this rig. The SM60 while being a tighter pattern than what I needed was incredible. I had dollies made for the subs at Space Case in Sacramento. This got me in and out ok but the covers I got were full body and that made it a pain to use. Going up stairs usually meant dragging them up as the 112 doesn't have wheels.

Still I wanted a little more. Pole mounting was a big deal because of the weddings. A better mount for the top box as well. The stock SM60 pole is a little far back and makes the cabinet front heavy. That made it so you had to put the leg forward on a tripod. I didn't like that so I got the mounting yoke and attached it to a K&m sleeve. This gave me tilt and a balanced speaker. Now however the yoke had to be detached every time and the speakers put back in the covers. Huge time waster.

So I did the buy once cry once and got the SM80/TH118 system. They weren't selling the DNA amps yet but were out of the Danley badged pro lites. So I got a pair of Crest Pro Lite 7.5 and when I was looking at dsp the DNA series came out. So I got the SC48 processor.

I had a steady gig for a little over a year in the same space with this rig and really had the time to listen and analyze it (Smaart). I ended up using the stock preset that Danley has for this rig but ended up removing the +2or3db bump at 2K or so. I liked the sound better without it and it didn't affect the phase trace enough for me to be concerned. This is my personal opinion and I'm not at all saying it's right. The guys that designed this box are way smarter than me. I just made an aesthetic choice.

Stairs with the 118 is not that big a deal. It's like pulling a loaded dolly up the stairs. Just take it slow one step at a time, lift with your knees, etc.
Additional help makes it way easier and I would eat some of the profit on a gig in order to pay help when I need it.

LOU
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Matthias McCready

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2019, 02:28:59 am »

I am not sure if this is what you are looking for but I know Meyer makes some smaller boxes. Obviously, they are powered.

I used a USW-1 sub for an event a few months ago and was quite pleased for the size (that is about the same weight of what you have now).

I know they make a couple of smaller subs (USW-210 and MM-10)

I am getting a demo from my local rep for the MM-10 in the next few weeks, not quite sure what to expect for such a small box! On paper, they go low enough for you, and they are not very heavy. However limited output and cost may be a barrier. Should be interesting to listen to.

---
While I haven't heard the Y sub, all of the D&B rigs I have mixed on lately have been glorious, so that would be another great option, of the so many which have been given.



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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2019, 04:02:11 am »

Hi Chris, that's the kind of feedback I'm looking for on these wee-little subs. 

My concern with lack of extension is that it will sound one-notey with walking bass lines etc.

FWIW, I haven't tried the 12" THs myself. I did a lot of reading around about them, though, as they were a contender when I came to make my current set of subs (15" ported, which don't go as loud as the 12" THs, but are flat to 40Hz).

You'll find that, as the bassist plays lower, the tonality of the instrument will change going down from A to E at the bottom end.
IIRC, A is somewhere in the 50-55Hz region, while E is 41Hz. So you'll get the fundamental of the A note, but only the harmonics of the E. Most bass instruments have stronger harmonics than fundamental, so the difference won't be massive.

I'd expect most members of this forum to notice the difference, but the average punter is unlikely to. Ever looked at the LF response of your average 1x15" bass amp?

I don't think a compact sub is ever going to sound impressive with your eyes closed, but the point of these cabinets is a lot of sound from a small box, and the good ones do that very well.

Chris
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Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2019, 12:29:52 pm »

You touched on them briefly - the JTR C212Pro subs - and I'd like to revisit them if you don't mind.

We have six (6) of them. All are active. They are *monsters* when it comes to output for rock shows. I would strongly encourage checking them out.

The active versions weigh-in at under 75-lbs. We can run four of them on a single 20A circuit, no problems whatsoever. They have real world, usable output to 39Hz (+/-3 dB of "Jeff measurements" (i.e., under-promised and over-delivered)). They are easily moved by one person.

We run ours with Jeff's 3TXs, Yamaha's DSR112s, and RCF's NX45a and TTL6-A. They play nicely with everything. I typically LPF them at around 85Hz.

If you'd like to go passive, Jeff will happily share with you all of the recommended settings for limiting, crossover, etc.. If you decide to go active, the amplifier plate is recessed into the cabinet; it would be really easy to make a "spill deflector" if you're worried about someone spilling liquid on top of the subs. Given how good the active versions work, I wouldn't even consider passive. :-)

Four of the C212Pro are plenty for most "reasonable" outdoor gigs. I've used them in beer tents that measure 120x50 (feet), and have had plenty of headroom. Two will cover most any bar gig.

They really are great subs.


Hi Steve,


Thank you for the revisit, I appreciate the first-hand experience with these cabinets as it helps put confidence behind "blind" purchases when I've never heard it in the wild.  By all accounts my Orbit Shifters impress me and everyone who hears them.  Seeing the smile on a drummers face when I bring the kick drum into the mix at sound check for the first time never gets old.  I'm sure the C212Pro meets everything Jeff says it can do, which checks all of the boxes I'm looking for with regards to performance.  Good to know how great the active ones perform. 


I didn't talk much about them because in my mind they are already a contender and I just wanted to make sure I wasn't too far down the Danley/EV/JTR rabbit hole to see what else existed in the world. 


My main gripes about the C212Pro are about the amp module.  There's very little information on it on the JTR website, so what I've learned has been based on reading up on the specs provided by the amp manufacturer (icepower) and on forums like these ones.  What I see in photos are dials for things like level, delay, HPF etc, which I'd prefer to have control of remotely or set in more "easy to recall" ways then marking out spots on a dial where I like the settings.  To me those things need fine resolution and recallable settings.  Bumping a delay dial by accident would really throw off your alignment.  Are the encoders detented at least? 


Things like the auto-turn on and RCA connections just make me "feel" like it's an amp from JTR's home theatre side of the business adapted to a Pro-styled cabinet, but again I'm just speculating because the lack of information online makes me resort to that.  I've sent Jeff a couple e-mails a few months ago asking questions about what sort of processing is included (are there limiters, HPF's) and whether it was possible to get a locking power cord option on a custom order.  So far none of those e-mails have been returned.
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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
¬ę Reply #29 on: January 11, 2019, 12:29:52 pm ¬Ľ


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