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Author Topic: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?  (Read 6057 times)

Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2019, 12:41:31 pm »

Back on topic.  The KW181's do very well for us and our clients,  they are easy to move and pack.  The problem is the next step up is a lot more boxes.

I have had a few chances to run the TH118's,  they are much cleaner, louder and lower than 4 kw181's (two a side).   The problem is you can get a lot done with those four 181's and the next step up you need more than a pair of TH118's.  I am thinking of replacing 12 Meyer 650P-R2's with 8 TH118XL's. 

I wish I could be more help,  I think that the OP is highly focused on specs when the client requirements and his logistics should dictate the purchase.



Thanks for the vote for the KW181 Scott, good to know they are working nicely for you and your team. 
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Brown Bear Sound
Victoria BC Canada

Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2019, 12:57:44 pm »

My first rig was a QSC KW setup. Two 112s and two 181s. It was fine and got the job done but I was always running out of gas or just not happy with it. With stair gig I had to lift the subs or find a friends to help. Kind of cumbersome.

I picked up a smaller Danley system used, mostly because of all the buzz around the SM80 and 118  on this forum. The rig was SM60s and TH112s. I loved the sound of this rig. The SM60 while being a tighter pattern than what I needed was incredible. I had dollies made for the subs at Space Case in Sacramento. This got me in and out ok but the covers I got were full body and that made it a pain to use. Going up stairs usually meant dragging them up as the 112 doesn't have wheels.

Still I wanted a little more. Pole mounting was a big deal because of the weddings. A better mount for the top box as well. The stock SM60 pole is a little far back and makes the cabinet front heavy. That made it so you had to put the leg forward on a tripod. I didn't like that so I got the mounting yoke and attached it to a K&m sleeve. This gave me tilt and a balanced speaker. Now however the yoke had to be detached every time and the speakers put back in the covers. Huge time waster.

So I did the buy once cry once and got the SM80/TH118 system. They weren't selling the DNA amps yet but were out of the Danley badged pro lites. So I got a pair of Crest Pro Lite 7.5 and when I was looking at dsp the DNA series came out. So I got the SC48 processor.

I had a steady gig for a little over a year in the same space with this rig and really had the time to listen and analyze it (Smaart). I ended up using the stock preset that Danley has for this rig but ended up removing the +2or3db bump at 2K or so. I liked the sound better without it and it didn't affect the phase trace enough for me to be concerned. This is my personal opinion and I'm not at all saying it's right. The guys that designed this box are way smarter than me. I just made an aesthetic choice.

Stairs with the 118 is not that big a deal. It's like pulling a loaded dolly up the stairs. Just take it slow one step at a time, lift with your knees, etc.
Additional help makes it way easier and I would eat some of the profit on a gig in order to pay help when I need it.

LOU


Hi Lou, thanks again for the information it's incredibly valuable to me.  It's crazy how some well thought out ergonomics can make a 160lb cabinet (TH118) easier to move around than either of the lighter subs you had.  I don't mind paying someone when they are available, I just don't want to heavily invest in something that requires me to find a helper every time.  Where I live the vacancy rate is incredibly low, every industry is starving for workers, and the cost of living is quite high, so local help can be costly if it's good and reliable, or it's good and cheap but you can't bank on them showing up on time.  That's been my limited experience so far anyway.


The yoke for the SM60F seems like the only good option for portable use unless you're flying them, and I've read complaints that it doesn't allow you to downtilt much if you have it on a pole from below.  The SM60F/THmini combo is definitely one of the considered solutions for my B rig, but I was looking closer at cabs like the SM96 or SH95 that might make a good front-fill with my larger rig.  Either way, the sub is the first step.  Thanks again.
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Brown Bear Sound
Victoria BC Canada

Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2019, 01:00:57 pm »

I am not sure if this is what you are looking for but I know Meyer makes some smaller boxes. Obviously, they are powered.

I used a USW-1 sub for an event a few months ago and was quite pleased for the size (that is about the same weight of what you have now).

I know they make a couple of smaller subs (USW-210 and MM-10)

I am getting a demo from my local rep for the MM-10 in the next few weeks, not quite sure what to expect for such a small box! On paper, they go low enough for you, and they are not very heavy. However limited output and cost may be a barrier. Should be interesting to listen to.

---
While I haven't heard the Y sub, all of the D&B rigs I have mixed on lately have been glorious, so that would be another great option, of the so many which have been given.


D&B and Meyer are certainly well known and would deliver on the "buy once cry once" mantra without exception.  The Y7P/D80/Y-sub solution suggested by Helge looks very attractive on paper but I still need to figure out what that would actually cost me.  If you remember, can you revisit this thread with your thoughts after you get a chance to demo the MM10?  Thanks for your input.
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Brown Bear Sound
Victoria BC Canada

Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2019, 01:05:20 pm »

FWIW, I haven't tried the 12" THs myself. I did a lot of reading around about them, though, as they were a contender when I came to make my current set of subs (15" ported, which don't go as loud as the 12" THs, but are flat to 40Hz).

You'll find that, as the bassist plays lower, the tonality of the instrument will change going down from A to E at the bottom end.
IIRC, A is somewhere in the 50-55Hz region, while E is 41Hz. So you'll get the fundamental of the A note, but only the harmonics of the E. Most bass instruments have stronger harmonics than fundamental, so the difference won't be massive.

I'd expect most members of this forum to notice the difference, but the average punter is unlikely to. Ever looked at the LF response of your average 1x15" bass amp?

I don't think a compact sub is ever going to sound impressive with your eyes closed, but the point of these cabinets is a lot of sound from a small box, and the good ones do that very well.

Chris


Thanks Chris, that gives me some usable metrics to consider with regards to extension.  I know what you mean about the response of a typical bass cab haha.  I've heard some low-end "pro audio" cabs that didn't sound much better which is why I'm trying to be so careful about my selection.
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Brown Bear Sound
Victoria BC Canada

Steve Litscher

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2019, 02:29:03 pm »


My main gripes about the C212Pro are about the amp module.  There's very little information on it on the JTR website, so what I've learned has been based on reading up on the specs provided by the amp manufacturer (icepower) and on forums like these ones.  What I see in photos are dials for things like level, delay, HPF etc, which I'd prefer to have control of remotely or set in more "easy to recall" ways then marking out spots on a dial where I like the settings.  To me those things need fine resolution and recallable settings.  Bumping a delay dial by accident would really throw off your alignment.  Are the encoders detented at least? 


Things like the auto-turn on and RCA connections just make me "feel" like it's an amp from JTR's home theatre side of the business adapted to a Pro-styled cabinet, but again I'm just speculating because the lack of information online makes me resort to that.  I've sent Jeff a couple e-mails a few months ago asking questions about what sort of processing is included (are there limiters, HPF's) and whether it was possible to get a locking power cord option on a custom order.  So far none of those e-mails have been returned.

I hear 'ya on the amps and the "HT" features... I've been over to Jeff's shop a few times, and my requests of him are: locking PowerCon (or IEC) connector, ditch the RCA jacks, and ditch the "auto" switch.

The amps are manufactured by SpeakerPower and use a few ICE components. They are robust in terms of power output and processing capabilities. I've never had an issue with the power amps (unlike RCF - I've had several of their amp modules fail). Unfortunately, Jeff doesn't have the leverage to design different/one-off amps for Pro vs HT... I wish he did.

To be honest - I've used his C212Pro for around 60-ish shows so far (we beta tested for him), and have never once had an IEC cable bump out, nor a setting get changed. We deploy them, validate settings, and do the show. We control delay from our DSP by the board, so we don't rely on the back-of-the-panel controls. And, once it's set for the gig, it's set.

Good luck with the purchase. I could've spent money in any number of places; I'm glad I went C212Pro, C218Pro, and Orbit Shifters. They are outstanding in every regard.

Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2019, 04:49:11 pm »

Thanks Steve, sounds like you've got a great line of communication with JTR and we're on the same page about some of the knobs etc. 

You've certainly provided first-hand experience to support that they are all they are claimed to be and I think they would be a really good fit for this application.  I knew he was using SpeakerPower previously (circa his old website design) but didn't realize he still was.  From all I've read online, they are no slouch when it comes to LF amplification so that's comforting.  Likely the lack of response from JTR on my inquiry was because it simply wasn't possible and he's tired of hearing those requests, or he put in a request to the amp module manufacturers that was never answered or followed up on.  That or it ended up in his spam e-mail somehow.  Oh well. 

I worked a house gig in a bar for a couple years where the IEC cables on the monitors they owned were really unreliable.  It got to the point that anytime a new artist looked at me and pointed at the monitor, I'd walk up to the stage and plug it back in before even looking at the board because it was ALWAYS falling out and I knew the gain staging and room well enough to know it wasn't the mix or levels they were complaining about.  They were some old DB Audio models, can't remember the exact model but this was years ago. 

Since then I've always been hesitant about anything IEC especially when bass is involved.  I don't mind converting it to PowerCon myself but depending on the build it may or may not be even possible.  On a light-carry gig if I can use the same cable type for power for everything it certainly helps, but it's not a deal breaker.  The fact that yours are holding up just fine indicates that those ones from my memory were just old or cheap.
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Brown Bear Sound
Victoria BC Canada

Dave Garoutte

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2019, 10:36:12 pm »

They make cool locking IECs that fit standard sockets by grabbing the ground lug.
Like this .
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Len Zenith Jr

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2019, 05:08:22 am »

I use these for locking iec connectors: https://www.amazon.com/Rewireable-IEC320-C13-Accidental-Unplugging-Disconnections/dp/B01DCFVXKK

They work great for monitors or any other situation where you fear the plug vibrating out. Had it happen to me on shows before, talent complaining of no monitors out of nowhere in the middle of a show. These end that problem.
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Jeremy Young

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2019, 11:28:34 am »

Thank you both those are great solutions!
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Brown Bear Sound
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Matthias McCready

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Re: Lightweight Rock & Roll subwoofer, what have I overlooked?
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2019, 02:34:57 am »


 If you remember, can you revisit this thread with your thoughts after you get a chance to demo the MM10?  Thanks for your input.

So I was able to demo the Meyer Sound slim system tonight, which consists of a UP-4SLIM over an MM10 (the part you are interested in).

I feel it is appropriate to review the whole system rather than just the sub, and as this is for a smaller B rig I thought you might be interested :)

As a package it was pretty sleek and sexy it all fit in a large Pelican, setup was super quick and much easier than conventional tripod stands, albeit that convenience and look cost!

To note the Phoenix cable connection (between the sub and the top) leaves a lot be desired. One would think for the price that they would have a nicer connection and cable?

For testing material, I had listening tracks, spoken word, multitrack playback of a recent mix, a live piano player, and a live drummer.

The coverage of the tops was fantastic and they had an amazing amount of output for such a small box. They were very detailed and went louder than I enjoy. They are very well suited for voice, lyrics on all of the songs were extremely intelligible. For voice and mic reproduction they were phenomenal. They put the SRX 7XX tops I had in the room to shame (granted these are very different speakers at different ends of the market, it was an interesting comparison though). 

For the piano, I miced it with an Audix SCX-25 I had on me. The system carried it perfectly and it was acoustically natural, it sounded as good as standing next to the piano! What a delightful system for any sort of acoustic reproduction.

As for the sub, it was quite portable and small (thereby lightweight). It was extraordinarily tight sounding, almost sounded like a sealed sub (although it is not). At the end of the day, it was very small. It is most certainly not the sub to ruffle your jeans. It lacks the bombastic and earth-shattering qualities of a larger sub. In taking a multitrack mix from a room with ample subwoofers, the kick and bass reproduction certainly suffered. It doesn't have the same feel, the "low end" is missing.

For the size of the box it had a lot of output, it did not seem (to my ear, sorry did not pull SMAART out tonight) to go quite as low as advertised, at least with any authority.

For the drummer the kick lost most of the benefit of having a D6, however, it still was a kick. Would I rather have a larger sub for a drummer? Absolutely! However, for a corporate band or small venue, it certainly could work. While it does not go incredibly low, what it does output is tight and sounds quite nice.

The only way I can describe the system is like a nice pair of sealed bookshelf speakers, it sounds very tight. If you directly compared the pair of speakers with and without a sub, you would miss the sub, however, on its own, it goes "low enough" and does so quite pleasantly.

This system would certainly not be suited to EDM, however for most anything else it was respectable enough.

--

For your situation would this work for you? Well that depends, I would be more than comfortable to use this system for talking heads, music playback, or even a small band, however, I do believe it would be missing the low end you desire. As far as the system is concerned it is not a sub to write home about, beyond that it pairs well with the 4P-Slim tops it is probably not worth purchasing for its own merit. I was impressed enough that I may buy one or two of these systems. In the context of a band for an event that the slim system would be appropriate for I would consider adding a USW-1 or two. Those are as heavy as what you are dealing with now, not what you are looking for.

With the downside of having an amp rack, D&B might be more up your alley for what you are looking for. Browsing their website t they have several subs which would meet your weight criteria. I have yet to mix on a D&B rig that I was not friends with.

Hope that is helpful!

Matthias


« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 02:40:54 am by Matthias McCready »
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