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Author Topic: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*  (Read 1680 times)

Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2019, 04:33:25 am »

Well first I trully appreciate ur responses. If it wer up to me well yes, yammis dsr12( 7 yr warranty and amazing throw)
Ev etx subs and a x32 but at this point in time the altos will have to do with the mackie 1604 vlz pro and deciding on subs. Is the turbosound a better sub for the $$ compared to the alto ($50 diff). Its what the budget allows so yes between those 2 (subs) is the info, insight, recomendations is what i am looking for.
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2019, 11:17:28 am »

Well first I trully appreciate ur responses. If it wer up to me well yes, yammis dsr12( 7 yr warranty and amazing throw)
Ev etx subs and a x32 but at this point in time the altos will have to do with the mackie 1604 vlz pro and deciding on subs. Is the turbosound a better sub for the $$ compared to the alto ($50 diff). Its what the budget allows so yes between those 2 (subs) is the info, insight, recomendations is what i am looking for.

Consider used. You can get a better used sub for very little more than or the same as an inferior new one.  Make sure to check it out well if unsure of its history. For example:
I just sold my 18 month old TurboSound IQ18 for $650. It was in excellent shape and would be great for your application.
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2019, 12:31:21 pm »

I just did a search on all local sites here that sell used in my area. Nothing really here within price range. Ther are alit of qsck181 but thats pretty much it. So so so if it came down to just these two, just these two subs turbo or alto, which one would work better for my application. Hypothetically they are the last subs in the store and i need something right then and ther, what would u choose considering what they will be used for. Your choice would be.....?
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Luke Geis

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2019, 02:39:18 pm »

It all comes down to money Dan.

I will say live audio is one field where the vendors do a good job pricing things to the market they fit in.

There isn't really an " application " per se where you would desire one design over another. It more comes down to system design and the tools you have available.

BP subs are known as one-note wonders for really only one reason. This is because the horn path narrows the bandwidth in which it has directional control over when used singularly. This makes the low notes less apparent; until you start adding more subs. When you start creating a line of BP subs the horns couple and directional control is achieved at the lowest octave. You start to achieve more output in the lower octave as you use more BP subs. Or put another way, you increase the effective bandwidth of the subs as you use more. The horn of the sub actually allows them to be more " punchy ", but when in small numbers they just don't have the bandwidth needed to have a full sound. The horn also makes it seem as if one note is ever coming out. This again is because of the horn path and its sensitivity to a particular frequency. This frequency, usually centered around 80hz or so, is the ONE NOTE that really gets amplified. Again as you add more BP subs, the frequency response widens and smooths out. BP subs do a better job of acting like one sub than BR designs do when used in multiples.

BR designs rely on the speakers direct radiating surface to do all the work. Hence also being known as direct radiating subs. They are much less efficient than their BP brothers but tend to be smoother and have a larger bandwidth than BP designs in smaller numbers. BR designs have a less peaky response typically and will still increase in bandwidth when multiples are used but have a higher level of harmonic distortion because the radiating surface is doing ALL THE WORK. It takes more BR speakers to acquire the same sensitivity in output as a BP design, so they work harder to produce similar levels of output as BR designs in similar numbers.

There is an impedance relationship to the air that is also a factor in how each design performs. In BR designs the driver is directly coupled to the air in which it is exciting or moving. In a BP design, the driver is in an enclosed, sealed box and it's impedance relationship to the air outside of the horn is MUCH different. If I am not mistaken the effective way to look at it is that a BR design has a nearly infinite or open circuit impedance relation to the air. The driver moves but can only move the air in which it is direct contact with, which has little or no resistance to that movement, so the excitation of the air is limited. In a BP design, the impedance to the air is MUCH higher. The driver moves and the entire volume of the horn path also then has to move. This volume of air is met with the atmosphere over an area nearly the size of the entire speaker box. That is a lot of air to displace and this effectively produces a level of impedance that increases the sensitivity of the sub. This is also why more BP subs couple really well. The horn mouth is so large that when you place two next to each other they almost act like a single even larger horn. The impedance relationship to the air creates an energy exchange. This energy exchange, all else being equal, is what helps BP subs produce more output and seem to have more punch and grunt over that of a similar performance BR design.

A shorter answer is that BP designs are better used in larger numbers for greater output and bandwidth or singularly where you need good output with very little area or space being utilized and don't mind a loss of bandwidth. BR/DR designs are best suited for systems that need directional control, need a smoother, larger bandwidth output with lower box counts and overall output isn't as important.

In the smaller scale and lower budget segments of the market, BP subs are less viable. The lower cost units just don't have the output and bandwidth to make them beat out many of the similarly priced BR/DR offerings. The BR/DR offerings are getting better and output is less of an issue these days with even affordable units. The short and easy of it is that if you need HUGE. raw output and have large numbers of BP subs, then go with those. If you need directional control, smoother frequency response with lower box count, or only have a small quantity of subs ( like a pair ), then go with BR/DR designs.
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2019, 02:42:20 pm »

I have no experience with either of the models you are asking about - sorry. Have you listened to them yourself? Could you try them out somehow?

Can you transport the larger KW181? If so, and you can get one of those used units you mention at the right price, you won't regret it!
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2019, 09:42:05 pm »

I have no experience with either of the models you are asking about - sorry. Have you listened to them yourself? Could you try them out somehow?

Can you transport the larger KW181? If so, and you can get one of those used units you mention at the right price, you won't regret it!
Get the uaed KW181 you will be much happier.

You really should not limit yourself to what is in stock,  shipping is quick.

You are also not doing the folks spending the money any favors by forcing their budget to fit specific gear.  The gear should suppport the goals of your performance,

You will end up buying the right gear at some point or giving up on the venture.

Buy once cry once,  the most expensive gear is the wrong gear.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2019, 05:48:05 am »

A quick FWIW...

It looks like you've got a budget of around $1200 for subs.
At that budget, I'd think seriously about DIYing something.

A B&C 18SW115 and an amp would fit into your budget with room to spare for wood etc, and that driver in a sensible cabinet driven to full power would go lower, louder and sound better than any of the subs mentioned so far.

Chris
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2019, 03:40:42 pm »

Hey guys sorry for late reply but was busy this wknd. So im talking to the band today and suggesting going w a pair of rcf 705 as ii. I think that would be a definite jump from the altos or turbosound. But like i mentiooned before we do it for fun, not pro by any means and basically anything will be better compared to what we use now. I trully appreciate all of ur input. We will see what happens later today wen we meet again w band.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2019, 07:12:34 pm »

Hey guys sorry for late reply but was busy this wknd. So im talking to the band today and suggesting going w a pair of rcf 705 as ii. I think that would be a definite jump from the altos or turbosound. But like i mentiooned before we do it for fun, not pro by any means and basically anything will be better compared to what we use now. I trully appreciate all of ur input. We will see what happens later today wen we meet again w band.
Those should be a big step up.  What about the tops?

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 07:28:41 pm »

Alto ts312
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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 07:28:41 pm »


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