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Author Topic: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*  (Read 1309 times)

Dan Gutier

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Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« on: January 05, 2019, 01:14:53 am »

I have been a long time reader but have never registered or ever posted anywhere. I do alot of reading . But this time i just could not find a definitive answer fo MY apecific needs/ application. So heres my question
We as a band( my 4 girks and myself including mom) are finally getting a pa system. Nothing fancy just enough for what we need. A pair of 12s and some 15s for subs.
I have the option of getting a BR cabinet or go with a bandpass cabinet. I need to know what will suit our needs
1. We are more a band than a dj. We offer dj services as a courtesy as we have the equipment and programs for it. My main concern is to sound good as a band ..dj is second
2. I want a tight punchy sound. Kick and bass along w perc running through system..keys and vocals as well.
3. Mainly top 40 and the occasional heavy synth patches and some sequences.
4 As far as dj..we just play what they want and nothing hard hitting again its a courtesy package we offer
5 i have an idea on the diferences of both sub box types but im just looking for a straight forward answer...i have read alot already and its mostly car audio.
5 Subs im looking at are the Alto ts215s powered sub(BR)
The other is a turbosound m15b (bandpass)
6. Why these 2? Simply put, Budget. The turbosound originally goes for 800 but is now 549 and the alto is 500
And im just trying to figure out what would be the beat choice for my application
All of ur responses are GREATLY appreciated as i am tired of looking :-[. Thanks!
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2019, 01:36:54 am »

I have been a long time reader

Hi Dan, given that you're a longtime reader you must surely know that full names are required to post here.  Is "Sound" your actual last name?
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2019, 01:38:15 am »

Apologies.dod not know will change right now
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2019, 01:43:28 am »

First time on a forum. Unaware of the details but done ✔
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2019, 01:50:59 am »

Some say bandpass is a "one note" sub and BR is more "musical"... Considering the frequencies going to the sub, how musical can they get. It will be a kick and bass lines. I can understand the possible bass lines anything over the "E" string but is it much of a difference? Considering the playback music, well we just play what the consumer wants and the events  we do dont go over 250ppl. I just really want a tight punchy sound for the band.
Suggestions, thoughts?
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2019, 01:58:59 am »

Events we do are basically for the members of our church. I have a cloudy idea of the pros and cons of each. Sacrificing quality of sound for spl or vice versa but again this was all playback/ car audio or home theatre and doeant really apply to our situation. Rad reviews on both bjt 90% all dj input.
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Joe Pieternella

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2019, 02:15:07 am »

Bandpass vs BR.
 The reason bandpass often gets quoted as one note wonder is because they are a relatively difficult to design narrow bandwidth sub enclosure. Bad/mediocre designs only make this problem worse by having peaky freq. response to begin with or by having to use sliding HPF to protect the woofer making the bandwidth even narrower.

Musicality in the "first" octave range comes from having subs with low THD and flat frequency responses since you are then able to hear a better difference between the notes being played.

Punch really comes from the top cabinets in almost every sub-top system. But can be wildy influenced by the combination and deployment of your system so....
Have you already selected or do you own the 12 inch tops? If so, which one. This will also help us answer other questions you had better.

Depending on whether you have to get 250 people dancing on a dancefloor or can/should be on the background for certain people or events the kind of music is still important. 250 kids listening to Hip-hop have wildly different requirements for sound than playing piano music on the background at a wedding.

Edit: maybe not my place to say anything abou this. But you might wanna try to add more information to a single post instead of scattering information.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 02:19:19 am by Joe Pieternella »
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2019, 02:27:55 am »

No problem. Again first time posting. Tops will be altos ts312 .
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2019, 03:37:40 am »

I would rather see you get one good sub, QSC 181, JBL PRX 718/818 or an EV ETX 18.

The Alto's,  while good at some things, the subs are way below par for a live band and barely adequate for basic DJ use.

I would worry less about the design type and more about the sound and quality of the sub.  How the designers achieve the sound is not relevant. 

If there is any way you can save more and get better tops you will be much happier.  Again,  those Alto tops are not up to the task to a live band as you describe.

The Yamaha DSR is the best 12" under a thousand on the market.  Sweetwater and ZZ Sound have 12 months same as cash to help you acquire the gear.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Joe Pieternella

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2019, 03:42:34 am »

Then between these two if those are your only options I would go with the alto.
First it has an integrated crossover for the tops. It is 9 kg less then the turbo and matching tops and subs just look better in my opinion. They are slightly larger though.

This is based on simple spec checking. Are you open to other suggestions
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2019, 04:33:25 am »

Well first I trully appreciate ur responses. If it wer up to me well yes, yammis dsr12( 7 yr warranty and amazing throw)
Ev etx subs and a x32 but at this point in time the altos will have to do with the mackie 1604 vlz pro and deciding on subs. Is the turbosound a better sub for the $$ compared to the alto ($50 diff). Its what the budget allows so yes between those 2 (subs) is the info, insight, recomendations is what i am looking for.
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2019, 11:17:28 am »

Well first I trully appreciate ur responses. If it wer up to me well yes, yammis dsr12( 7 yr warranty and amazing throw)
Ev etx subs and a x32 but at this point in time the altos will have to do with the mackie 1604 vlz pro and deciding on subs. Is the turbosound a better sub for the $$ compared to the alto ($50 diff). Its what the budget allows so yes between those 2 (subs) is the info, insight, recomendations is what i am looking for.

Consider used. You can get a better used sub for very little more than or the same as an inferior new one.  Make sure to check it out well if unsure of its history. For example:
I just sold my 18 month old TurboSound IQ18 for $650. It was in excellent shape and would be great for your application.
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2019, 12:31:21 pm »

I just did a search on all local sites here that sell used in my area. Nothing really here within price range. Ther are alit of qsck181 but thats pretty much it. So so so if it came down to just these two, just these two subs turbo or alto, which one would work better for my application. Hypothetically they are the last subs in the store and i need something right then and ther, what would u choose considering what they will be used for. Your choice would be.....?
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Luke Geis

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2019, 02:39:18 pm »

It all comes down to money Dan.

I will say live audio is one field where the vendors do a good job pricing things to the market they fit in.

There isn't really an " application " per se where you would desire one design over another. It more comes down to system design and the tools you have available.

BP subs are known as one-note wonders for really only one reason. This is because the horn path narrows the bandwidth in which it has directional control over when used singularly. This makes the low notes less apparent; until you start adding more subs. When you start creating a line of BP subs the horns couple and directional control is achieved at the lowest octave. You start to achieve more output in the lower octave as you use more BP subs. Or put another way, you increase the effective bandwidth of the subs as you use more. The horn of the sub actually allows them to be more " punchy ", but when in small numbers they just don't have the bandwidth needed to have a full sound. The horn also makes it seem as if one note is ever coming out. This again is because of the horn path and its sensitivity to a particular frequency. This frequency, usually centered around 80hz or so, is the ONE NOTE that really gets amplified. Again as you add more BP subs, the frequency response widens and smooths out. BP subs do a better job of acting like one sub than BR designs do when used in multiples.

BR designs rely on the speakers direct radiating surface to do all the work. Hence also being known as direct radiating subs. They are much less efficient than their BP brothers but tend to be smoother and have a larger bandwidth than BP designs in smaller numbers. BR designs have a less peaky response typically and will still increase in bandwidth when multiples are used but have a higher level of harmonic distortion because the radiating surface is doing ALL THE WORK. It takes more BR speakers to acquire the same sensitivity in output as a BP design, so they work harder to produce similar levels of output as BR designs in similar numbers.

There is an impedance relationship to the air that is also a factor in how each design performs. In BR designs the driver is directly coupled to the air in which it is exciting or moving. In a BP design, the driver is in an enclosed, sealed box and it's impedance relationship to the air outside of the horn is MUCH different. If I am not mistaken the effective way to look at it is that a BR design has a nearly infinite or open circuit impedance relation to the air. The driver moves but can only move the air in which it is direct contact with, which has little or no resistance to that movement, so the excitation of the air is limited. In a BP design, the impedance to the air is MUCH higher. The driver moves and the entire volume of the horn path also then has to move. This volume of air is met with the atmosphere over an area nearly the size of the entire speaker box. That is a lot of air to displace and this effectively produces a level of impedance that increases the sensitivity of the sub. This is also why more BP subs couple really well. The horn mouth is so large that when you place two next to each other they almost act like a single even larger horn. The impedance relationship to the air creates an energy exchange. This energy exchange, all else being equal, is what helps BP subs produce more output and seem to have more punch and grunt over that of a similar performance BR design.

A shorter answer is that BP designs are better used in larger numbers for greater output and bandwidth or singularly where you need good output with very little area or space being utilized and don't mind a loss of bandwidth. BR/DR designs are best suited for systems that need directional control, need a smoother, larger bandwidth output with lower box counts and overall output isn't as important.

In the smaller scale and lower budget segments of the market, BP subs are less viable. The lower cost units just don't have the output and bandwidth to make them beat out many of the similarly priced BR/DR offerings. The BR/DR offerings are getting better and output is less of an issue these days with even affordable units. The short and easy of it is that if you need HUGE. raw output and have large numbers of BP subs, then go with those. If you need directional control, smoother frequency response with lower box count, or only have a small quantity of subs ( like a pair ), then go with BR/DR designs.
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2019, 02:42:20 pm »

I have no experience with either of the models you are asking about - sorry. Have you listened to them yourself? Could you try them out somehow?

Can you transport the larger KW181? If so, and you can get one of those used units you mention at the right price, you won't regret it!
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2019, 09:42:05 pm »

I have no experience with either of the models you are asking about - sorry. Have you listened to them yourself? Could you try them out somehow?

Can you transport the larger KW181? If so, and you can get one of those used units you mention at the right price, you won't regret it!
Get the uaed KW181 you will be much happier.

You really should not limit yourself to what is in stock,  shipping is quick.

You are also not doing the folks spending the money any favors by forcing their budget to fit specific gear.  The gear should suppport the goals of your performance,

You will end up buying the right gear at some point or giving up on the venture.

Buy once cry once,  the most expensive gear is the wrong gear.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2019, 05:48:05 am »

A quick FWIW...

It looks like you've got a budget of around $1200 for subs.
At that budget, I'd think seriously about DIYing something.

A B&C 18SW115 and an amp would fit into your budget with room to spare for wood etc, and that driver in a sensible cabinet driven to full power would go lower, louder and sound better than any of the subs mentioned so far.

Chris
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2019, 03:40:42 pm »

Hey guys sorry for late reply but was busy this wknd. So im talking to the band today and suggesting going w a pair of rcf 705 as ii. I think that would be a definite jump from the altos or turbosound. But like i mentiooned before we do it for fun, not pro by any means and basically anything will be better compared to what we use now. I trully appreciate all of ur input. We will see what happens later today wen we meet again w band.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2019, 07:12:34 pm »

Hey guys sorry for late reply but was busy this wknd. So im talking to the band today and suggesting going w a pair of rcf 705 as ii. I think that would be a definite jump from the altos or turbosound. But like i mentiooned before we do it for fun, not pro by any means and basically anything will be better compared to what we use now. I trully appreciate all of ur input. We will see what happens later today wen we meet again w band.
Those should be a big step up.  What about the tops?

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 07:28:41 pm »

Alto ts312
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2019, 08:11:22 pm »

Alto ts312
So you squeezed out money for the subs but not for the tops?

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2019, 08:32:04 pm »

Yup.and it not a done deal quite yet. I can use tops for monitors wen we upgrade so not a complete loss
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2019, 02:58:05 am »

Yup.and it not a done deal quite yet. I can use tops for monitors wen we upgrade so not a complete loss
They are halfway decent monitors. That's a decent path.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Dan Gutier

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Re: Live PA..sub question .just tired of reading*
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2019, 04:08:03 pm »

Thank you thank you all but espevially Luke Geis and Jo for your informative and straight forward answer i trully appreciate it. Now the band in between the rfc 705 asii vs the ev ekx 15s piwered sub. Tops are the ev elx 112p. BETWEEN THESE TWO which would fit the bill better for a band rather than dj.
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