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Author Topic: How cabinets are measured  (Read 1907 times)

lindsay Dean

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Re: How cabinets are measured
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2019, 02:45:00 pm »

I can always tell when a non-musician/vocalist is running sound when he says "the monitors are not supposed to sound good just be loud"
wait?......😳....what?
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Luke Geis

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Re: How cabinets are measured
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2019, 09:12:34 pm »

Except I am a musician and singer with 27 years experience playing in bands, et all.

Monitors can be made to sound good subjectively, but I contend that a singer that really wants A LOT will have one that doesn't sound good no matter what you do. The distortion and harmonics alone is one reason. The second is that by the time it's that loud, A LOT of stage wash from the mic will be in the speaker as well. Don't even get me started on intermodulation and its effects.

The number of tricks employed in order to make a stable monitor that gets up to a true 130db SPL is astronomical. Some of the tricks will make your head spin. The truth is, a truly loud monitor mix will not sound very good by most subjective measures. Now that isn't to say that you cannot have a loud and good sounding monitor mix, but when I say it is meant to be loud, not sound good, it is standing on the shoulders of an objective goal, not a subjective measure. A monitor mix that sounds like an angel resting its wings on your shoulders, that doesn't get loud enough, is a worthless monitor mix from an OBJECTIVE standpoint. A monitor that isn't raped to death by corrective and musical EQ, WILL be louder than one that is.

This is why I say monitors are meant to be heard, not sound good. Once you have the needed SPL from the monitor, then you can work on making it sound pretty. My experience anyway, has lead me to that fact. I will say that better monitors tend to sound better and maintain stability too. So it's not so much that no F$%*s are given about the quality of sound, but that if I have to choose between loud or pretty, I am going with loud and then see how pretty it can be made after I have the needed level.
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: How cabinets are measured
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2019, 12:29:22 pm »

Saw Meyer's M-Noise in LSI a few days ago.   https://m-noise.org/

In the 'Real World SPL' link found down the page under M-Noise Education,
the speaker on the ground / mic on the ground technique is shown starting at about 1:40. 

I know many folks are aware of this technique....just thought the link might help make it clearer to those that aren't.

This 'lay speaker on side, tilt to perpendicular to mic pointing into hard surface ground',
has been giving me results that match pretty well indoors to outdoors....surprisingly close really.
I'd rather be more than 1m back though, as recommended in the vid...always feel like too much triangulation is going on up close for decent timing adjustments.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How cabinets are measured
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2019, 03:54:46 pm »

Saw Meyer's M-Noise in LSI a few days ago.   https://m-noise.org/

In the 'Real World SPL' link found down the page under M-Noise Education,
the speaker on the ground / mic on the ground technique is shown starting at about 1:40. 

I know many folks are aware of this technique....just thought the link might help make it clearer to those that aren't.

This 'lay speaker on side, tilt to perpendicular to mic pointing into hard surface ground',
has been giving me results that match pretty well indoors to outdoors....surprisingly close really.
I'd rather be more than 1m back though, as recommended in the vid...always feel like too much triangulation is going on up close for decent timing adjustments.
The idea behind M noise is a good one.  A lot of thought was put into the noise.  It makes sense to me, much more than simple pink noise. 

I am glad that Meyer is releasing the wav file and encouraging others to use it.

But putting a full range speaker on the ground is not generally what I consider the best way to measure them, it gives a false sense of the low freq output, vs up in the air where they would normally be located.

I would "argue" that different types of measurements should/could be done different ways, in order to get a real world usable measurement.

Some cabinets should be measured MUCH further away than 1m to get a usable number that will translate to a modeling program.  While other cabinets are fine at 1m.

Some cabinets will give greater than usable numbers at 1m, and other cabinets will give lower than usable numbers.  It depends on a number of different factors involved.

BTW, I did a quick measurement using the M noise and the same NTI XL2 meter on a non Meyer loudspeaker (that is suitable for being measured at 1m).

I got 9.5dB higher peak output than the normal loudspeaker specs, so they are correct, maybe the spec sheet needs to change.

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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: How cabinets are measured
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2019, 04:23:34 pm »

The idea behind M noise is a good one.  A lot of thought was put into the noise.  It makes sense to me, much more than simple pink noise. 

I am glad that Meyer is releasing the wav file and encouraging others to use it.

But putting a full range speaker on the ground is not generally what I consider the best way to measure them, it gives a false sense of the low freq output, vs up in the air where they would normally be located.

I would "argue" that different types of measurements should/could be done different ways, in order to get a real world usable measurement.

Some cabinets should be measured MUCH further away than 1m to get a usable number that will translate to a modeling program.  While other cabinets are fine at 1m.

Some cabinets will give greater than usable numbers at 1m, and other cabinets will give lower than usable numbers.  It depends on a number of different factors involved.

BTW, I did a quick measurement using the M noise and the same NTI XL2 meter on a non Meyer loudspeaker (that is suitable for being measured at 1m).

I got 9.5dB higher peak output than the normal loudspeaker specs, so they are correct, maybe the spec sheet needs to change.

In complete agreement with different measurement needs....along with exaggerated low end from mains on ground.
I guess I've just found as a simple DIY tuner type, that the both on the ground technique gives the best consistency I can achieve.
And then I can pretty simply adjust low end when on a stand or subs..
Wish I had one of your guys cranes  :)

Yep, I like the idea of M-Noise a lot too.  Makes intuitive sense. 
First thing I did was go bang some spoons taking a Smaart transfer, to see if Smaart is as fast as Meyer's SIM3 (since Meyer said SIM2 wasn't fast enough).

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