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Author Topic: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue  (Read 7644 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2018, 07:18:15 PM »

I like the suggestion to ask the speaker manufacturer about rating of handles for rigging, maybe with the picture.

If the handles are not fly rated, and they are put on notice how the speakers are being used,  they may become more interested, or not.

JR

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Lyle Williams

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2018, 09:26:38 PM »

Turning a blind eye is NEVER the right option. "Just accepting" statements that have no obvious validity is "just accepting" liability for when one of those speakers falls.

To do more is to accept liability. If you have no professional skills or responsibility in an area, and the responsible authority asserts that those with professional skills assess a situation to be safe, then the issue is over for you.

Say you get the event cancelled, and it turns out there was an engineers certificate covering the install.  Are you going to pay for the consequences of the event cancellation?
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Lyle Williams

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2018, 09:37:56 PM »

The sitation starts with an "I wouldn't do that because I don't know how strong the speaker handles are".

Report it, move on.

If you research and find out that the speaker handles are too weak, then you have probably stepped up your liability a notch and have to do something further.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2018, 10:44:05 PM »

I'm going say the speakers are Yamaha C series, club series in a better finished box. The flyable version does not have handles.
I wonder why they left the point of sale stickers on the grills!

Attached is page 2 from the manual.

We are focusing on the handles but how did they attach the cables to the beam.

Erik Jerde

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2018, 12:20:47 AM »

I've been asked to sound for a week-long dance camp taking place at this university. I am not an employee of the school nor of a member of the organization putting on this event. Last month I went on an inspection of the rooms to be used for workshops and evening dances, and it is in one of the rooms that I noticed a possible safety issue. It just didn't look right, so I posted a picture of one of the speakers in question and asked for opinions before proceeding. My concerns have been shared among some prominent members of this discussion group.

As a result, I have notified the camp organizers as well as a key employee of the university, an event coordinator, of my concerns. So far the response to my concerns has been positive ("We'll look into it" type of thing), but after a few weeks I haven't received a response. Granted, it's the end of the term and the holiday period, so probably I will hear something after January 1. However, I don't want a reply of "don't worry, everything is good" from the university. I would like some verification that the rigging in the key venue is indeed safe. One thing I have requested is the make and model of the speakers so that I can consult their documentation. Other than that, I don't know exactly what would reassure me that I can proceed with the job.

The most stressing part of this query is that the dance organizers are my friends, not just clients. They respect the work I do and very much want me to do the event. But in 20 years of doing sound, I've had two incidents that nearly resulted in lawsuits, and so I'm hyper vigilant about safety. I see egregious examples of poor installations all the time and have made it a policy to turn down jobs in such places. In this case, I accepted the job before inspecting the main dance area. I can still back out, but doing so might jeopardize my friendships.

That's why I've posted here. The valuable input available on this forum helps me formulate my thoughts and reassures me I'm not making a big fuss over nothing.

They’re not really your friends if they don’t respect your decision to back out for safety reasons.
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2018, 06:52:48 AM »

I have, in similar situations, refused to use the installed system unless they could document that it was installed in a safe manner. Had a similar thing a couple of weeks ago where all the hardware was not rated for overhead suspension so I refused to use it and got paid to put in my own system on the ground.
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ThomasA(lbenberger)

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2018, 07:10:50 AM »

Alan,

being from another part of the world, I have no concept of the legal aspects of your case. However, these aside, in my opinion it

a) doesn‘t matter, what the university tells you
b) doesn‘t matter what liability issues arise

You are ‚hired‘ by your friends for your expertise in live-production. You care about their health and safety and about your own. If you do have safety concerns, based on your knowledge, clearly voice them to your friends. If you are not sure, whether or not the situation poses any risks, tell your friends so.

If your friends then decide to use this venue, they obviously either don‘t value your expertise, or their own health and safety.

The university will not respond to any more inquiries coming from you. Why would they? You are not the customer, and the contract most probably doesn‘t state that whithout you, there is no show. Don‘t bother with the university, let your friends do the talking and deciding. If they are going to do the show in this location, you still have the option to refuse working there, just tell your friends now, that this will be the case!

Merry Christmas everyone!

Thomas

PS: My Crystal Ball shows me, that your friends are going to do the show at this venue, no matter what you say. It also shows, that the speaker most likely will not come down while your friends are there, and that everyone will think of you as a paranoid jerk for hasseling them and creating a bad mood and uncertainty before the show. You will not be rewarded for your concerns, nor will anything change at the venue. Deal with it. How I know? ... ;-)

Or do your research properly, and if you are certain that the situation is a safety issue, report it to the authorities, and be prepared to back up your claims. And be sure that nobody will thank you for that, either.

BTW: Did you do any research by now? Is this a safety risk at all? Did you grab a ladder and inspect the back plate of the speaker in question for the make and model? Did you search for the product manual or rigging guide? No? What evidence would you base the advice you give to your friends on? Opinions voiced on an internet forum? ...

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Keith Broughton

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2018, 08:53:35 AM »

"Without a sign off of inspection from a 3rd party structural engineer, I cannot do the event"
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Sean Zurbrick

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2018, 11:11:47 AM »

I'm going say the speakers are Yamaha C series, club series in a better finished box. The flyable version does not have handles.
I wonder why they left the point of sale stickers on the grills!

Attached is page 2 from the manual.

We are focusing on the handles but how did they attach the cables to the beam.

^^^ This, and the picture below is all you need to show the university, and your friends. Regardless of the qualifications of the "riggers", or anything else that may be wrong, the manufacturer says not to fly the speaker by the handles. (removed part about not bolts on the bottom, the flyable version does have bolts on the bottom, they just don't show it in the image) The manual also states not to tilt the boxes more than 45 degrees. These look like they are pointing nearly straight down. I'm nobody and can tell there is nothing right about this hang.
 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 11:16:01 AM by Sean Zurbrick »
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2018, 12:32:48 PM »

I agree that the speakers will probably not fall down tomorrow, is there perhaps a non-binary compromise that would strongly make your point without completely upsetting the apple cart...

What is immediately beneath the subject speakers? Is it possible to mark off that area to keep meat puppets from loitering beneath.

Ideally some of the crowd control ropes
Cheaper and less effective might be police crime scene warning tape  ::)

This should embarrass the venue enough to maybe fix the hang.

JR
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Follow-up question regarding an unsafe venue
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2018, 12:32:48 PM »


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