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[Jonathan Betts]

Maybe the system you used wasn’t setup and or tuned properly?  We use the SM 80/TH 118 in rooms like you describe on a regular basis with great success.

This room was to capacity during this show and the system had plenty of gas left.

https://youtu.be/xNVEc_KOi1g

[Ivan Beaver]

I do believe that only one TH118 is enough for the job. but 2 SM80's are not.
I don't want the sound to go vertically 80 degrees, and the SM80 lacks the energy to get the volume to the other end of the hall.


The TH118 is a winner. the SM80 is not good enough.

As a "general rule", for loud events, I suggest 2 or 3 TH118s for each SM80.

It is not that the TH118s are that "wimpy", but rather that the SM80 is that strong.

Remember that the OS80 (the outdoor version) is often used at stadiums for long "throws".

So it WILL get to the back of the hall-assuming that the speakers are high enough.

Also people often get confused with the patterns and sizes of horns.

They often "think" that the narrower pattern horn will keep more energy off of the ceiling.

This ONLY happens if the horn is LARGE enough.

For a given physical size, a narrower pattern MUST be larger than a wider pattern horn to have the same control freq.

So a small size narrow pattern horn will lose control at a higher freq, so that at the lower freq, it may actually be putting MORE sound on the ceiling than a wider horn that is larger.

You MUST consider the physical size of the horn, NOT just the rated pattern.

I did an EDM event outside in a field with 2 SM80s as mains (and strong subs), and was doing 105dB A slow at 100'.  It was plenty loud.

[Jeff Lelko]

Maybe the system you used wasn’t setup and or tuned properly? 

I agree - something had to be wrong.  The demo I attended used 2 SM80s with 4 TH118s and sounded about right, though I was told the SM80s still had gas left in the tank.  Mind you this was outdoors and my decibel meter was still north of 100 dBA measured around 100ft back.  I'd have to look up the exact numbers - maybe Rick (who conducted the demo) will chime in with the real measurements taken...but regardless for a simple wedding this should be more than enough.

[Tim McCulloch]

A wedding hall is 125 x 85 give or take, and yeah the ceilings are high.
I tested 2 SM80 and one T118 and I was not satisfied! halfway down the hall, the dancers asked for more volume and more punch.
the TH118 was LOUD the bass notes came through the back bathrooms walls, my body was shaken up by the beast TH118, and some here are suggesting placing 2 TH118?!  Noooo..... That 118 made people have bowel movements - no joke!

What is "punch" and how do manufacturers spec it?

It seems you were up against the Inverse Square Law.  Any energy with spherical radiation will lose 6dB for every doubling of distance.  To make the dancers in back happy you'd probably cause hearing damage to folks up front.

{topic swerve}

And I have a question - why do various groups (ethnic, religious, or others) demand harmful SPLs?  I'm often told "its our culture" but I submit that our grandparents never experienced 118dBC unless they were near explosives (or were in front of the shofar player).  So when did excessive SPL become any group's "culture"?  My slightly cynical answer is "when it became possible."

{/topic swerve}

[Yoel Klein]

As a "general rule", for loud events, I suggest 2 or 3 TH118s for each SM80.

It is not that the TH118s are that "wimpy", but rather that the SM80 is that strong.

Remember that the OS80 (the outdoor version) is often used at stadiums for long "throws".

So it WILL get to the back of the hall-assuming that the speakers are high enough.

Also people often get confused with the patterns and sizes of horns.

They often "think" that the narrower pattern horn will keep more energy off of the ceiling.

This ONLY happens if the horn is LARGE enough.

For a given physical size, a narrower pattern MUST be larger than a wider pattern horn to have the same control freq.

So a small size narrow pattern horn will lose control at a higher freq, so that at the lower freq, it may actually be putting MORE sound on the ceiling than a wider horn that is larger.

You MUST consider the physical size of the horn, NOT just the rated pattern.

I did an EDM event outside in a field with 2 SM80s as mains (and strong subs), and was doing 105dB A slow at 100'.  It was plenty loud.

Hi Ivan,
Thank you for your explanation, I need to digest what you wrote. "I suggest 2 or 3 TH118s for each SM80."
I don't have to explain here how loud the TH118 is, and you're saying that 2 or 3 118's are needed to balance the SM80!
How??? the SM80 is rated for only 400 watts! with a continuous output of 128 dB SPL, and the TH118 is 1700 W continuous output at 128 dB SPL.
Can you please explain why you suggest 2 or 3 TH118s for each SM80?

[Nick Andrews]

Hi Yoel ,

I'm very familiar with these weddings that you do. I've done literally hundreds of them as an engineer and system provider here in ny. Full orchestras to one man band.

The very first thing that should be understood here is that these weddings / events  should not be treated or thought of as a normal wedding. I would almost think of this as more of a rock n roll concert level type of event for the dancing portions at least.

Obviously there are different schools of thought on how to cover a space. Obvious restrictions are production budget when it comes to these events, logistics of load in and load out (elevator access) man power and labor, trucking, storing, maintenance, and venue power availability to start with. 

Some of the guys who specialize in this business just put fill speakers up everywhere , much like a distributed audio system, Sometimes this is good for keeping even coverage in large and odd shaped rooms, but there are obvious issues when you do this. (poor clarity due to timing issues, cable paths, trip hazards, power issues)

When you get into other restrictions like the Mahitza wall (wall that divides the entire room , and sometimes completely different sections for the ladies and men , obviously distribution of speakers sometimes is a must to cover the room.

Then there are other guys I see bring out big line array rigs that still put up fill speakers everywhere and totally crush everyone with volume and out of time boxes. Quite honestly it defeats the whole purpose of the array system in my opinion, and you may as well be using trap boxes at the point.

I have always had better success covering these events with SINGLE per side wide dispersion boxes, positioned correctly , with maybe an additional fill or so when totally needed in the tough to reach spots.

Rather than the classic old approach (and i'll leave the local providers names out) 2) 90x60 speakers hanging per side on tbars, overlapping like hell , combing and canceling each other out with garbage spotty coverage  guess I don't like that setup huh ?  To me it's like fitting a square peg in a round hole, 10lbs of crap in a 5lb box. 

In the rooms with horrible acoustics, it kinda is what it is without acoustic treatment, Get the speakers aimed and downtilted and as nearfield to the audience as possible in these situations and try not to excite the room to much, get the sound off the ceiling and walls and more at the people , less is more especially with a wider dispersion box, you will have more clarity from a single point source IMO. Also try to ditch the wedges  and stage monitoring on stage in these tough acoustic rooms and get everything coming from just the main  system, it will help clean up the room sound a ton. Def go IEM if you can.

I hope this was at least some what helpful

[Yoel Klein]

Hi Yoel ,

I'm very familiar with these weddings that you do. I've done literally hundreds of them as an engineer and system provider here in ny. Full orchestras to one man band.

The very first thing that should be understood here is that these weddings / events  should not be treated or thought of as a normal wedding. I would almost think of this as more of a rock n roll concert level type of event for the dancing portions at least.

Obviously there are different schools of thought on how to cover a space. Obvious restrictions are production budget when it comes to these events, logistics of load in and load out (elevator access) man power and labor, and venue power availability to start with.

Some of the guys who specialize in this business just put fill speakers up everywhere , much like a distributed audio system, Sometimes this is good for keeping even coverage in large and odd shaped rooms, but there are obvious issues when you do this. (cable paths, trip hazards, power issues)

When you get into other restrictions like the Mahitza wall (wall that divides the entire room , and sometimes completely different sections for the ladies and men , obviously distribution of speakers sometimes is a must to cover the room.

Then there are other guys I see bring out big line array rigs that still put up fill speakers everywhere and totally crush everyone with volume and out of time boxes. Quite honestly it defeats the whole purpose of the array system in my opinion, and you may as well be using trap boxes at the point.

I have always had better success covering these events with SINGLE per side wide dispersion boxes, positioned correctly , with maybe an additional fill or so when totally needed in the tough to reach spots.

Rather than the classic old approach (and i'll leave the local providers names out) 2) 90x60 speakers hanging per side on tbars, overlapping like hell , combing and canceling each other out with garbage spotty coverage  guess I don't like that setup huh ?  To me it's like fitting a square peg in a round hole, 10lbs of crap in a 5lb box. 

In the rooms with horrible acoustics, it kinda is what it is without acoustic treatment, Get the speakers aimed and downtilted and as nearfield to the audience as possible in these situations and try not to excite the room to much, get the sound off the ceiling and walls and more at the people , less is more especially with a wider dispersion box, you will have more clarity from a single point source IMO. Also try to ditch the wedges  and stage monitoring on stage in these tough acoustic rooms and get everything coming from just the main  system, it will help clean up the room sound a ton. Def go IEM if you can.

I hope this was at least some what helpful

Nick!!
You nailed it! This is exactly what I'm trying to FIX! and suggesting to the big players in the community to ditch the JBL's with the T-bars... (oh, don't get me started now..) and the others with their Line Array, and ditch all the Fill speakers, as a matter of fact, they are still not happy, but they lack to understanding the real reason it sounds like trash!

I had a meeting with the "Decision makers" of those big events and told them about using just 2 Danley tops, -Just 2!
I want to demonstrate it to them, but I'm afraid to do it with 2 SM80's...  Because at the one wedding it was used by a freind of mine, (see the clip in the beginning of this thread) they demanded 'Fill speakers', and up came 2 RCF's, which is not bad on its own, but it was totally out of sync with the SM80's in literally every aspect!

So (with permission) I turned off the RCF's' and pushed the SM80's fader up, but I was scared to drive it with so much Watts, when it's only rated for 400 watts!  I did not feel comfortable riding the fader up that high with those cheap China amps as you can see on the clip, the TH118 was using 2 channels in bridge mode and already hitting RED, and the SM80's almost at full power!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d3i020qjjfii2dp/2018-11-12%2022.20.02.mov?dl=0

Therefore I thought about the SH46! bringing to the job 2 SH46's could impact their minds to use ONLY THOSE 2 BOXES! plus subs of course.

So here every one is telling me that the SM80 is overly enough! , so Nick,  what is YOUR opinon about the SM80's?

P.s. I Edited this post to add another clip fro the other end of the hall, (RCF's are in between on one side as fills) note the Disastor of a sound!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdl4hz1xme9bb55/2018-11-12%2020.55.46.mov?dl=0

[Dave Garoutte]

Up high and angled down!

[Rob Spence]

Often, the “punch” is from the top box and the impression is enhanced by the time aligned sub.

Yost, you said there was plenty of low end with the pair of subs so perhaps you simply needed more top speakers closer to those who might be deaf from too many weddings.

I have worked a few of these weddings. Sometimes with my rig and sometimes not. In each case, the folk who wanted it real loud moved toward the band and those who didn’t, moved away.

In the case of you apparently running out of gas with the SM80s, I agree with the others that either the rig was not configured right or perhaps you were a victim of room modes this time. It seems from re-reading some posts that the rig was not processed appropriately along with, as you say, cheap amps.

To evaluate a speaker system, you need to treat it as a system and not just substitute a couple of boxes in an existing rig.

I am curious, what DSP do you typically use for speaker processing?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Yoel Klein]

Up high and angled down!

it was up and angled down

[ProSoundWeb Community]