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[Yoel Klein]

Hi, everyone!
I am into acquiring new speakers. (my current is EAW LA series, old but lovely)
I walked into a wedding and found Danley SM80's and the TH118. Oh my! I was up for the rest of the night...
I already spent weeks researching Danley, and it looks very promising.

Question, according to Danley the SM80 is a horn... I cannot comprehend how? I can see the woofer just like any ordinary box. I do want to know how the compression driver gets it's juice true the woofer. but I really would like to know if the SM80 is a horn? and how?

Moving ahead, I fell in love with the SM80F, oh that warm bass notes can revive a dead soul! but the box is an up and down configuration, so the sound is not really coming out from ONE location, like an SH46 (I still want to demo the SH46).

Any info to bring my knowledge up to speed is highly appreciated! 
 

[John Halliburton]

Hi, everyone!
I am into acquiring new speakers. (my current is EAW LA series, old but lovely)
I walked into a wedding and found Danley SM80's and the TH118. Oh my! I was up for the rest of the night...
I already spent weeks researching Danley, and it looks very promising.

Question, according to Danley the SM80 is a horn... I cannot comprehend how? I can see the woofer just like any ordinary box. I do want to know how the compression driver gets it's juice true the woofer. but I really would like to know if the SM80 is a horn? and how?

Moving ahead, I fell in love with the SM80F, oh that warm bass notes can revive a dead soul! but the box is an up and down configuration, so the sound is not really coming out from ONE location, like an SH46 (I still want to demo the SH46).

Any info to bring my knowledge up to speed is highly appreciated!

The horn is not long, perhaps 6" deep, and flares at approximately the same rate as the cone of the 12" coaxial driver.  To get a better understanding of the driver, just Google "B&C 12" coaxial driver" The high frequency driver is mounted concentrically within the motor structure of the 12" section, and exits thru the center under the dust cap.  Some types will have a small horn there instead.  They are one of a handful of manufacturers producing top quality coaxial speakers.

The SM80 horn is molded out of a very strong plastic.


The SH46 low section is not like the SM80F.  The SM80F uses a tapped horn subwoofer design built with the SM80 cabinet in the top front section is all. The SH46 is a fully integrated three way design meant to be used with subwoofers for almost all applications.  It is not capable true bass reproduction on it's own.


The SM80 and TH118 combo is a very good sounding combo that gets surprisingly loud and clean for it's size, many here use them.


Knowing more of your intended use(with crowd and venue sizes, type of music, etc.) would help the forum members make recommendations.

Best regards,

John

[Yoel Klein]

The horn is not long, perhaps 6" deep, and flares at approximately the same rate as the cone of the 12" coaxial driver.  To get a better understanding of the driver, just Google "B&C 12" coaxial driver" The high frequency driver is mounted concentrically within the motor structure of the 12" section, and exits thru the center under the dust cap.  Some types will have a small horn there instead.  They are one of a handful of manufacturers producing top quality coaxial speakers.

The SM80 horn is molded out of a very strong plastic.


The SH46 low section is not like the SM80F.  The SM80F uses a tapped horn subwoofer design built with the SM80 cabinet in the top front section is all. The SH46 is a fully integrated three way design meant to be used with subwoofers for almost all applications.  It is not capable true bass reproduction on it's own.


The SM80 and TH118 combo is a very good sounding combo that gets surprisingly loud and clean for it's size, many here use them.


Knowing more of your intended use(with crowd and venue sizes, type of music, etc.) would help the forum members make recommendations.

Best regards,

John

Well, Thank you for the explanation.
Basically, the SM80 is indeed a fantastic coaxial speaker. with pattern control due to the 6" deepness. but in no way is this a Synergy Horn... its an impresive coaxial speaker. and since Danley is all about a horn design, they have an issue not naming the SM80 horn, and I don't believe the SM80 falls under the Synergy Horn patent. So here comes the SM80F attached to with the patent Tapped Horn. correct me if I'm wrong.  And honestly, even tough Danley's philosophy is all about Horn design, I believe Danley has a right to produce a non-Horn design, hence the SM80.

Moving on, The kind of crowd I need to cover is a Wedding Hall. 175 Couples, add additional 100+ friends and etc, and the dance floor gets really crowded.
 
The music is usually a One Man Band with a Kork PA-4X with a lead vocal, all the way up to a full band, all reading notes on the supplied iPads, together with a Choir and a special guest soloist. using in-ear monitoring, with a dedicated live engineer sending Dante to track recordings for a later remix.

One fact remains, after the meal, there are 2nd dance set's, the first dance is at tempo 160bpm playing Polka, Klezmer/Polka, and fast Rock. The volume must be so high that anyone wanting to talk must go outside the hall, wait for their ears to open up to be able to carry a conversation...  Then comes a 15 Minute brake, Ice cream and refreshments are served, the Immediate Family and neighbors all take seats around the edges of the hall, and for the Second dance, in comes the real stuff... the Groom's friends from School/High school/Collage. they all walk in for second dance ready to rock and roll! Music is changed to 118bpm playing Disco, Techno, trans, Hora, and all the good stuff! and with hands high up they are waiting for that "Punch" to get them flying in the air!

For that, the requirement is 2 loudspeakers that could deliver that Punch in the low end, and still maintain a crisp top end, The SubWoofer is there to enhance that experience, but cannot be the only box delivering the beat into the stomach! the tops must do that as well and do it with really high clear output throwing the full sound 125 feet down range with no mercy! Oh, and the lead Singer must be able to express his guts loud and clear above all the music without any fear if blowing a driver...

Get the Idea?!

Below is a dropbox link I shot with my iPhone Xs . note the very beginning the audio comes in distorted, but the iPhone limited the input. this is a fairly "smaller hall" at the first dance with a basic plan, a One Man Band and a Singer. you could also note there are 2 fill speakers RCF needed because the SM80 lacks the Throw. (This in not my set up, it was my uncles wedding)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/naj3y5a429gynrh/2018-11-12%2022.22.23.mov?dl=0

I will look around If I can find a clip of a second dance with all those teenagers...

[Yoel Klein]

Another example of the JBL system the community is stuck with!
this is as groom walks in to be lifted up, and the music is one big...Washing machine! but I don't feel confident that 2 SM80 is the answer!
what would you recommend? 2 SH46 sideways? or 2 SH64? or 2 SH62 lifted with some sort of a crank stand

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZbUAYcKP7FjTrkTz6

Here is another clip of a so-called second dance, with 4 JBL's and lots of sounds issue... everyone is sleeping... the sound is bad!!!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JervCwN4wLJg64jg6

[Jeff Lelko]

For that, the requirement is 2 loudspeakers that could deliver that Punch in the low end, and still maintain a crisp top end, The SubWoofer is there to enhance that experience, but cannot be the only box delivering the beat into the stomach! the tops must do that as well and do it with really high clear output throwing the full sound 125 feet down range with no mercy!

If that’s your expectation then you’ll be very disappointed with the SM80, as its crossover frequency is very high compared to the “tradiational” full range speaker.  Subwoofers are mandatory when using an SM80 for any sort of music playback.  While the SM80F helps to address this, it’s a big box and not the most graceful thing to deploy if an SoS rig is what you need.

Also, you don’t “throw” sound.  How coherent the sound remains over a given distance is the factor you need to address.  While I wasn’t a huge fan of the SM80 after hearing it, I will admit that it holds it own quite well in this regard especially given its size/weight/price. 

[Chris Grimshaw]

For that, the requirement is 2 loudspeakers that could deliver that Punch in the low end, and still maintain a crisp top end, The SubWoofer is there to enhance that experience, but cannot be the only box delivering the beat into the stomach! the tops must do that as well and do it with really high clear output throwing the full sound 125 feet down range with no mercy! Oh, and the lead Singer must be able to express his guts loud and clear above all the music without any fear if blowing a driver...

Get the Idea?!

You have a lot of preconceptions.

The job of a subwoofer is to put out bass.
The job of the main speakers is to do the rest of the range.

Having overlap means you'll have to do some clever phase alignment over a wide frequency range, while flying 2x15" mains. No thanks.

I'd expect a 2x SM80 and 2x TH118 (with adequate power) to do the job just fine. Want more bass? Add more TH118s.

Chris

[Yoel Klein]

You have a lot of preconceptions.

The job of a subwoofer is to put out bass.
The job of the main speakers is to do the rest of the range.

Having overlap means you'll have to do some clever phase alignment over a wide frequency range, while flying 2x15" mains. No thanks.

I'd expect a 2x SM80 and 2x TH118 (with adequate power) to do the job just fine. Want more bass? Add more TH118s.

Chris

Good morning Chris.
I agree 100% about the jobs of the Mains and the job of the Sub, overlapping and phase issues is not something I want to deal with either.
I do believe that only one TH118 is enough for the job. but 2 SM80's are not.
I don't want the sound to go vertically 80 degrees, and the SM80 lacks the energy to get the volume to the other end of the hall.

The JBL SR715's they are using now, is way worse! and they often use 4 tops with 2 subs, its horrible. So I want them to replace the 4 JBL SR715's tops with 2 Danley boxes, and the 2 Subs with one TH118.

The TH118 is a winner. the SM80 is not good enough.

The SM80F is a nice dream, but in reality, it's big and heavy.

So, what about the 2 SH46's sideways* and 1 TH118?
(*covering 60 degrees horizontal and only 40 degrees vertical)

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Good morning Chris.
I agree 100% about the jobs of the Mains and the job of the Sub, overlapping and phase issues is not something I want to deal with either.
I do believe that only one TH118 is enough for the job. but 2 SM80's are not.
I don't want the sound to go vertically 80 degrees, and the SM80 lacks the energy to get the volume to the other end of the hall.

The JBL SR715's they are using now, is way worse! and they often use 4 tops with 2 subs, its horrible. So I want them to replace the 4 JBL SR715's tops with 2 Danley boxes, and the 2 Subs with one TH118.

The TH118 is a winner. the SM80 is not good enough.

The SM80F is a nice dream, but in reality, it's big and heavy.

So, what about the 2 SH46's sideways* and 1 TH118?
(*covering 60 degrees horizontal and only 40 degrees vertical)

Yoel, welcome to the forum.  A couple thoughts condensed from several of your posts:

- Nicer speakers certainly help with sound quality issues by being better-behaved internally (e.g. coaxial arrangement, internal phase alignment, flatter response, etc.), however they are still subject to the environment they are placed in.  Anytime you have more than one speaker you have time interactions.  If you have any kind of mains/subs system, for good performance they need to be time-aligned and EQ'd together.  These relationships change with the physical setup - if you move your sub to the middle of the room instead of directly under the mains you will have to compensate.  If you raise your speaker stand higher than usual you will have to compensate.  There's no getting around this.

- Arraying multiple speakers together such as a pair of SH46 may work, but again you have multiple sources and it won't sound as good as a single box.  The logistics of this are a significant issue as well - how are you going to elevate them?  That's not trivial.

- The acoustics of the room have an extreme impact on sound quality.  The best speaker money can buy will sound like garbage in a very reverberant room.  This has implications in practicality - how much work you are willing to do for sound quality should be weighed against what benefit can actually be expected.

- This point I say with the disclaimer that I don't understand your culture, but for weddings I have been to, it is desirable to have full sound near the dance floor, but from my experience I'd actually rather not have great coverage all the way to the back of the room so that there are places where guests can choose to get away from the sound. 

Any speaker requiring external amplification will require someone competent in tuning the system.  There is middle ground between the pictures of very old passive speakers and a Danley rig - modern self-powered speakers like the JBL SRX-P series, Yamaha DSR series, EV ETX series, and others.  These sound very good, are much less expensive, and have good logistics.  Don't overlook those.

[Randy Pence]

Well, Thank you for the explanation.
Basically, the SM80 is indeed a fantastic coaxial speaker. with pattern control due to the 6" deepness. but in no way is this a Synergy Horn... its an impresive coaxial speaker. and since Danley is all about a horn design, they have an issue not naming the SM80 horn, and I don't believe the SM80 falls under the Synergy Horn patent. So here comes the SM80F attached to with the patent Tapped Horn. correct me if I'm wrong.  And honestly, even tough Danley's philosophy is all about Horn design, I believe Danley has a right to produce a non-Horn design, hence the SM80.

Moving on, The kind of crowd I need to cover is a Wedding Hall. 175 Couples, add additional 100+ friends and etc, and the dance floor gets really crowded.

There are lots of sm80 videos on youtube to get a feeling as to how they perform over larger areas.

It is a horn, just not one designed to play down into the bass range, hence the subwoofers. The Synergy patent covers xover and driver loading techniques

[Yoel Klein]

Yoel, welcome to the forum.  A couple thoughts condensed from several of your posts:

- Nicer speakers certainly help with sound quality issues by being better-behaved internally (e.g. coaxial arrangement, internal phase alignment, flatter response, etc.), however they are still subject to the environment they are placed in.  Anytime you have more than one speaker you have time interactions.  If you have any kind of mains/subs system, for good performance they need to be time-aligned and EQ'd together.  These relationships change with the physical setup - if you move your sub to the middle of the room instead of directly under the mains you will have to compensate.  If you raise your speaker stand higher than usual you will have to compensate.  There's no getting around this.

- Arraying multiple speakers together such as a pair of SH46 may work, but again you have multiple sources and it won't sound as good as a single box.  The logistics of this are a significant issue as well - how are you going to elevate them?  That's not trivial.

- The acoustics of the room have an extreme impact on sound quality.  The best speaker money can buy will sound like garbage in a very reverberant room.  This has implications in practicality - how much work you are willing to do for sound quality should be weighed against what benefit can actually be expected.

- This point I say with the disclaimer that I don't understand your culture, but for weddings I have been to, it is desirable to have full sound near the dance floor, but from my experience I'd actually rather not have great coverage all the way to the back of the room so that there are places where guests can choose to get away from the sound. 

Any speaker requiring external amplification will require someone competent in tuning the system.  There is middle ground between the pictures of very old passive speakers and a Danley rig - modern self-powered speakers like the JBL SRX-P series, Yamaha DSR series, EV ETX series, and others.  These sound very good, are much less expensive, and have good logistics.  Don't overlook those.

Hi Tom,
I'm done with JBL's...
The Yamaha is great for smaller jobs, or big camp dining rooms where I deployed them with great success.
I was thinking of using 2 SH46 sideways as a right and left mains and one TH118.
I"m aware of the ceiling of the hall's producing reverb I don't want, and I understand that tuning them is essential. I want to try to stick with Danley for the reason of pattern control, high output, and long distance travel of the sound, avoiding the need for a fill speaker and all issues that go with it.

[ProSoundWeb Community]