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[Patrick Cognitore]

After seeing the photo of the room, I believe it is possible that the problem is not with the Bose system but with the room. I am taking an educated guess that the room is very reverberant and that even with no music, the sound level from the crowd alone is very high. I doubt that using a louder system would sound any better in that room. I think you are fighting a losing battle trying to compete with the crowd noise. I would also guess that even with no crowd, and just the band playing, that the sound is bouncing around so much that it is hard to hear anything clearly. A natural reaction is to turn it up louder since it is hard to hear any detail. This is wrong and you should actually turn down the volume to try and get some clarity by reducing the level of the sound bouncing around.

That's true. The room is an old warehouse. Concrete floors/walls, some glass, etc. When you're in it it's a little deceiving how large the space is because with decor they make is seem a bit more intimate. The room doesn't inherently sound band, I've played in much worse rooms. But it's not great either.

This last weekends had fewer people that the one we did earlier in December. That factor, along with the slight EQ and compression fixes, lower overall levels and different bass guitar all combined to make for a better night.

Bottom line, the system works way better when you don't try to make it do what it won't do.

I looked on youtube for some F1 videos and Bose seems to have sold quite a few of these units and they sound surprisingly good in many of the videos. I was surprised how good they sounded and the level that they were playing in some fairly large rooms and outdoors.

Here is an official Bose video where they placed a F1 system in a 1,000 seat concert venue and had several top level engineers try the system out.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keUtck_F7es

Ouch. I hope they all were paid well.

[Patrick Cognitore]

I agree and understand with all you posted. And I would actually be OK with a more compressed mix. This is a wedding band playing with tracks and doing top 40, we're not making high art here. The more impact we can get the better, nuance and dynamics be damned.

You already know at this point that you need more rig for the gig, but as seen there are tricks to get a little more. You went from subs that were obviously distorting to not even going into limiting and found that limiting certain instruments helps keep the PA intact.

That last bit you mention is key, with one correction. The subs were NOT going into limiting or clipping at any time.  I would be happy if I saw either the limit or clip indicators, but they've never given any visual indication of that and it makes me think the LEDs and/or processing is not working in some way.

That's why in my OP I asked if other users were having this issue or could shed some light on the distorting but not limiting/clipping situation.

Another big factor was the 5 string bass I used on the most recent gig has a totally different fundamental response than my custom 6 string that I used on the previous gig. My 6 string has a surprising amount of fundamental present on the lowest notes, so the 35 to 50hz range lights up the RTA pretty good when I'm playing down that end. And when I slap or double thumb the impact is pretty significant in the frequency range. I recently bought that 5 string as my "road bass" so I don't have to subject my custom axe to these types of gigs, and that may work out to an advantage when reinforcing it through this system.

[Patrick Cognitore]

Bonehead omission.

The other big change I made for this gig was the PA was placed on the floor, not on the 2' tall stage. And I toed them in so they crossfired a bit into the dance floor. This gave a broadband hotspot about 20-25' out on the dance floor, which was a good thing IMO.

I also think it gave smoother and clearer coverage to the areas outside the main dance floor. Bose claims 100* horizontal dispersion, and there is no way that's accurate for most of the mid/high spectrum. The sound starts to get muffled about 30* off axis. With a cross-fired arrangement the patrons to the sides get the most direct sound from the speaker opposite them. The volume is lower but clearer, and when I walked room a bit I was much more satisfied with the coverage.

[Scott Holtzman]

Bonehead omission.

The other big change I made for this gig was the PA was placed on the floor, not on the 2' tall stage. And I toed them in so they crossfired a bit into the dance floor. This gave a broadband hotspot about 20-25' out on the dance floor, which was a good thing IMO.

I also think it gave smoother and clearer coverage to the areas outside the main dance floor. Bose claims 100* horizontal dispersion, and there is no way that's accurate for most of the mid/high spectrum. The sound starts to get muffled about 30* off axis. With a cross-fired arrangement the patrons to the sides get the most direct sound from the speaker opposite them. The volume is lower but clearer, and when I walked room a bit I was much more satisfied with the coverage.

Important note, compressing a signal increases it's overall power level and heats up the driver faster.



Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

[Chris Grimshaw]

Important note, compressing a signal increases it's overall power level and heats up the driver faster.

... If you apply make-up gain.
If not, you've made some bits quieter, which would decrease power levels a little.


The video made me chuckle - they must've got paid for that.
Having seen an F1 system used next to mine, I can say that HF horns still rule, and there's still no replacement for displacement when it comes to subwoofers. 4x 10"s is less cone area than 2x 15".
I can see it'd be an improvement over the usual Wharfedale 15"/1" + 18" subs that bar bands often buy, but that's about it.


To Patrick,
I'd make sure the F1 system is working as it's meant to - run the setup as stereo (no Aux-fed subs), connect the mains to the subs in the way recommended by the manual, and start troubleshooting. Play music and crank it - does the system still sound stressed? What if you connect your bass?

From the picture, I suspect it's simply not enough rig for the gig. FWIW, if a client sent me that photo and the room dimensions you've described, I'd be thinking about 4x 15" subs, 2x 2x10" mains, and around 10KW of amplification.

Chris

[Paul G. OBrien]

I looked on youtube for some F1 videos and Bose seems to have sold quite a few of these units and they sound surprisingly good in many of the videos.

It doesn't take much SPL to distort the mic input on a cell phone so any such video posted online with clear sound means it wasn't terribly loud at the camera position.

[Robert Lunceford]

It doesn't take much SPL to distort the mic input on a cell phone so any such video posted online with clear sound means it wasn't terribly loud at the camera position.

There was no distortion. The sound was clear and sounded full range.
Here is one example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzWCqo5iFMA

[Patrick Cognitore]

There was no distortion. The sound was clear and sounded full range.
Here is one example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzWCqo5iFMA

Robert - have you used this system with a live band in different environments? If so I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

But a judgement made from watching youtube videos posted by other people in circumstances much different than mine doesn't provide much valuable input.

[Tim McCulloch]

We did a gig with an act that is using F1 for "stage fills" in larger rooms with provided PA, and as the PA in clubs.  I generally support performers being self-contained on stage so as to give them repeatable experiences and increase their comfort level.

Lots of "level control" actions - electronic drum kit (sounded better than many), direct outputs from modeling guitar amps run at (initially) reasonable levels.  The only thing making lots of noise was the star's GTR rig and it got louder all night.

In the 2000 capacity venue this show was played it's hard to say how the F1s sounded on stage (they got louder than I expected, SQ was another matter) because I mixed the whole show up the the GTR level.

The guy who wanted more control over the stage sound effectively sabotaged his own efforts.  At the end of the night I said "good luck with the F1s, I hope you find the stage presence you're looking for.  I wanted to say "go IEM and put your amp in an iso box"...

[Greg_Cameron]

Having seen an F1 system used next to mine, I can say that HF horns still rule, and there's still no replacement for displacement when it comes to subwoofers. 4x 10"s is less cone area than 2x 15".

^^This^^


There are a lot of posts in this thread, but I think this is what it boils down to: you're not going to get a lot of punch out of a pair of dual 10" reflex or bandpass subs, I don't care who makes them or how much they cost. For the $2400 street price for a pair of these, one could do a lot better spending that money on something else. A pair of JBL SRX818SP b-stock for about the same price would be a substantial upgrade.

[ProSoundWeb Community]