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Author Topic: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?  (Read 4119 times)

Patrick Cognitore

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Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« on: December 17, 2018, 01:32:46 am »

My band has the Bose F1 top sub system and last week in a larger than typical room we seem to be stressing the subs. The grills were rattling and to the ear the woofers sounded stressed, but also there was not a whole lot of impact on the dance floor.

At the same time, there was no indication of limiting or clipping from the speaker. My thought (and hope) would be that the built in limiter should kick in before there was the potential for damage to the speaker. I guess it's possible that the limit and clip LEDs are not functioning correctly, but it'd be unlikely to have that issue with both subs, right?

Some info on the system and set-up:

Subs are run off an auxiliary send, mains direct from L/R of mixer (Behringer XR18).

Channels sent to Sub Aux - Kick, Bass guitar, tracks, toms, playback audio for set breaks.

Kick and bass have channel HPFs of 45hz and 35hz, respectively.

No channels were clipping and the mixer was in the green.

Something to note: we're all on in ears and it's a silent stage - no amps, no monitors and electronic drums.

System crossover function takes place in the processing of the speaker itself, the Bose manual says it's a 100hz HPF in the tops. I don't know where or if there is a LPF in the subs (or high pass filter, for that matter). We're not using the thru output since the tops are fed directly from the mixer.

We are doing some broad out of band EQ cuts. Sub Aux has a -15db "Hi cut" set at around 200hz. Main outputs to tops have a "Low cut" ~100hz. The output EQs on this mixer do not have actual HPF and LPF available, to my knowledge.

Speaker stacks were placed the 2ft tall stage. If my math is right boundary cancellation should've been just out of the subwoofer passband, ~100-130hz. Rear wall was 25', and side walls were greater than 30' from each stack.

-----------------------

Any thoughts from Bose F1 users, or input from anyone else?
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 03:23:48 am »

Some thoughts:

Since the mains and subs have their own processing built-in to perform crossover duties, you shouldn't need to mess around with EQ/crossovers at the desk. -15dB at 100Hz on the main speakers will be losing you energy in the 100-150Hz range (where a lot of "punch" lives, and also messing things up around the 100Hz crossover point. You can bet the 200Hz cut on the subs isn't helping, either.

Chances are you've then increased the level on the subs to compensate for the lack of "punch", which has mostly boosted the lower bass, which is a lot of work for the sub drivers.


Next up, bear in mind the subs are only a pair of 10"s, so you've got less cone area than a 15" per side. 4x10"s in total would probably match a single 18". How big was the room?

I have some main speakers that use a pair of (very good) 10"s per side, and I'd hesitate to run a full band in a large room through them.
I think this is simply a case of not enough rig for the gig (although your EQ cuts won't help). If you're regularly doing rooms that size, I'd consider upgrading your PA system. If it's less frequent, I'd look at renting in racks-n-stacks from an external supplier.

Chris
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John P. Farrell

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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 10:48:35 am »

Some thoughts:

Since the mains and subs have their own processing built-in to perform crossover duties, you shouldn't need to mess around with EQ/crossovers at the desk. -15dB at 100Hz on the main speakers will be losing you energy in the 100-150Hz range (where a lot of "punch" lives, and also messing things up around the 100Hz crossover point. You can bet the 200Hz cut on the subs isn't helping, either.


Chris beat me to it....adding the EQ won't help you get more out of a system of that design, and in fact will severely affect the way the crossover and built in processing work, not to mention time alignment of the system.  Apologies if you've accounted for this and realigned everything.  It's actually a great lab test for Smaart....look at the phase relationship of your main outs compared to the subs in a properly set system (theoretically the factory settings for the F1) and then HPF the mains and see what happens. 

Honestly I would look for a proper rig for a gig that size, silent stage or not.  There are lots of racks & stacks available for short $ if its an occasional hit for you.

JF
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Patrick Cognitore

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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 11:23:24 am »

Thanks for the reply.

To clarify - my role in the band is a hired gun bass player, I'm just helping out with sound trying to improve the product. Ultimate decisions on operation on not up to me, but they will seriously consider my advice.
Some thoughts:

Since the mains and subs have their own processing built-in to perform crossover duties, you shouldn't need to mess around with EQ/crossovers at the desk. -15dB at 100Hz on the main speakers will be losing you energy in the 100-150Hz range (where a lot of "punch" lives, and also messing things up around the 100Hz crossover point. You can bet the 200Hz cut on the subs isn't helping, either.

These out of pass band cuts were implemented before I started with the band. In fact, they were using graphic EQ's on the master and sub aux buses to accomplish this and switched those to 5 band parametrics in the hope of smoothing out the response. 

I will eliminate those cuts completely next time we fire the system up and see what happens.

Chances are you've then increased the level on the subs to compensate for the lack of "punch", which has mostly boosted the lower bass, which is a lot of work for the sub drivers.

Yes, I'm sure. In fact the gain structure is all out of wack because the sub aux level and main level faders get shifted in soundcheck and through the night. We listen and go "hey, where's the punch" and then push the sub faders but still don't get the response we want. The relative acoustical crossover point gets shifted every time that happens, and I don't even know if our starting point is the correct balance.

I would like to get rid of the aux fed subs completely right now and just run it all straight from the mains with the cabinets' internal processing doing all the work. It'll simplify setup and the signal chain. Eliminating the variables of changing top and sub faders level may go a long way.

Next up, bear in mind the subs are only a pair of 10"s, so you've got less cone area than a 15" per side. 4x10"s in total would probably match a single 18". How big was the room?

I have some main speakers that use a pair of (very good) 10"s per side, and I'd hesitate to run a full band in a large room through them.

I think this is simply a case of not enough rig for the gig (although your EQ cuts won't help). If you're regularly doing rooms that size, I'd consider upgrading your PA system. If it's less frequent, I'd look at renting in racks-n-stacks from an external supplier.

We definitely did not have enough rig for the gig. But in any case the clients are not complaining, my inquiry is in the interest of offering a consistent product from event to event.

The room was an old warehouse that's been converted into an event space. The event was a wedding, maybe 250-300 pax? The space to which we were playing was only part of the warehouse, an approximate square maybe 7-8000 sq.ft. The dance floor area was reasonable though, ~30'w x ~45'L.

Hiring in sound is not really an option. I don't deal with the business end at all in this group but I'm sure the margin isn't there to support that. If a higher output system is needed the band would be more inclined to purchase rather than rent, they are willing to invest in what is needed to offer the best service they can long term.

I'm not really concerned about being able to fill a venue that size with concert sound, but want to be able to get good impact on the dance floor, which would typically be no more than 50' deep and usually much less. Events are mostly weddings, corporate parties, etc. Not dance club or rock show volume.

Transport space in the bus's storage bays is limited and we are almost topped out, not to mention the bay door entrances are only 18" tall so typical 18" subs are a non-starter. I have a JBL PRX712/718xlf system that would could utiliize, but transport logistics are an issue. If higher output system was needed consistently a revamping of the entire FOH would probably be needed.

I'd like to figure out what's up with these particular subs. They were not pushing enough air on this show for sure, but while they seem to be struggling the internal processing/protection is giving no indication of any issues. I don't want to end up in a position were we launch those 10" woofers through the grill and not have ever gotten a limit or clip indication.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 12:21:01 pm by Patrick Cognitore »
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Patrick Cognitore

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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 01:02:52 pm »

The system is most definitely not time-alinged or Smaarted or anything. Check my reply to Chris, I elaborate on the particulars a bit.

Quote
Chris beat me to it....adding the EQ won't help you get more out of a system of that design, and in fact will severely affect the way the crossover and built in processing work, not to mention time alignment of the system.  Apologies if you've accounted for this and realigned everything.  It's actually a great lab test for Smaart....look at the phase relationship of your main outs compared to the subs in a properly set system (theoretically the factory settings for the F1) and then HPF the mains and see what happens. 

Honestly I would look for a proper rig for a gig that size, silent stage or not.  There are lots of racks & stacks available for short $ if its an occasional hit for you.

JF
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2018, 02:20:40 pm »

Hi Patrick-

From you description of how the subs physically responded - rattling grilles, etc - give the impression that they were being fed substantial energy near or below the LF tuning.  You might double check that the aux sends were at the correct level and that there was no unusual LF boost applied to one or more of those inputs.
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Pat Cognitore

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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2018, 01:11:58 pm »

I'll get a look at the mixer settings again this weekend, I'll take a close look then. But we're using in house stacks and racks at the upcoming gig so the mix will be in the hands of the house engineer.

I'm 95% sure there isn't any 'irregular' sub bass being sent to the subs as we are using HPF on all channels. There is no bass eq boosted. It's entirely possible that the HPFs are not high enough.

Bose claims a spec of -3db at 40hz, and -10db at 38hz. The kick channel HP is set at 45hz, and the 5 string bass at 35hz. I can bring the bass up for sure. With the kick I'd want to check the RTA to make sure I'm not gonna start chopping away at the fundamental (it's a roland Vdrum, FWIW).
Hi Patrick-

From you description of how the subs physically responded - rattling grilles, etc - give the impression that they were being fed substantial energy near or below the LF tuning.  You might double check that the aux sends were at the correct level and that there was no unusual LF boost applied to one or more of those inputs.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 01:14:02 pm by Pat Cognitore »
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Rob Spence

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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2018, 05:08:47 pm »

I'll get a look at the mixer settings again this weekend, I'll take a close look then. But we're using in house stacks and racks at the upcoming gig so the mix will be in the hands of the house engineer.

I'm 95% sure there isn't any 'irregular' sub bass being sent to the subs as we are using HPF on all channels. There is no bass eq boosted. It's entirely possible that the HPFs are not high enough.

Bose claims a spec of -3db at 40hz, and -10db at 38hz. The kick channel HP is set at 45hz, and the 5 string bass at 35hz. I can bring the bass up for sure. With the kick I'd want to check the RTA to make sure I'm not gonna start chopping away at the fundamental (it's a roland Vdrum, FWIW).
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

You do realize that even if a filter is set at a value, there is significant energy outside of that setting? It is not a brick wall filter.



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Pat Cognitore

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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2018, 05:10:45 pm »

You do realize that even if a filter is set at a value, there is significant energy outside of that setting? It is not a brick wall filter.



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Yes, I realize that.

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Robert Lunceford

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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2018, 06:49:08 pm »

Isnít the Bose F1 a turnkey system where you just feed it a full range signal and the the internal crossover and processing does the work?
I would forget about aux fed subs. I doubt that you can improve on what the Bose engineers built into the system, especially with the eq in a xr18.
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Re: Bose F1 Sub, having issues. Any users have feedback?
¬ę Reply #9 on: December 18, 2018, 06:49:08 pm ¬Ľ


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