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Author Topic: Mixmatching subs?  (Read 1902 times)

Brian Strachan

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2018, 09:13:26 pm »

So Iím back again.. Haha.

PL-380 + Cheap Yami subs = a siezed voice coil in one of the cabs. Iím reslly not surprised and honestly wasnít driving them that hard. Cheap emmenance (I think thatís how itís spelled) drivers just couldnít keep up.

So hereís my new question. Whatís my best option? Hereís what I see:

Replace the one blown driver and continue using both cabinets of SW218vs as I was

Replace all 4 drivers with a nicer set. I found a couple options, but I was considering black widows because theyíre $45 to re-cone if I pop one. Downside to this is putting nicer drivers in cheap MDF cabinets. Theyíve been reinforced, but cheap is cheap.

Replace blown driver, try to sell the cabs cheaply and get new subs. This doesnít fit my budget currently but I think I could ultimately afford something new. Iíve been seriously considering buying another set of SW218vs to run with the ones I had and I suppose thatís still an option. Just wanted to see what people thought.

I donít have a massive budget
I play almost all EDM based music
PL-380 for power
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2018, 09:57:35 pm »

So Iím back again.. Haha.

PL-380 + Cheap Yami subs = a siezed voice coil in one of the cabs.
Too bad I am just seeing this thread because that was my prediction when I read your plan to use the PL.


So hereís my new question. Whatís my best option? Hereís what I see:

Replace the one blown driver and continue using both cabinets of SW218vs as I was
You don't have 1 blown driver you have 2 at least... you just don't know it yet, the "survivor" in that box has been cooked within seconds of oblivion and will most likely fail the next time it is used. Same goes for the other box too.

Replace all 4 drivers with a nicer set. I found a couple options, but I was considering black widows because theyíre $45 to re-cone if I pop one.
Black Widows are not an upgrade.. don't be fooled by the power rating, but Lowriders would be and incidentally are what is found in the QW subs.

Iíve been seriously considering buying another set of SW218vs to run with the ones I had and I suppose thatís still an option. Just wanted to see what people thought.
If you do this you want all drivers to match so don't upgrade the boxes you have just get some OEM replacement drivers or recones. Adding more boxes is free output form increased driver displacement which means you can have the same SPL while running all of them at a more conservative power level which gives the drivers a better chance of surviving.
I donít have a massive budget
I play almost all EDM based music
PL-380 for power
What have you got to limit this beast? You really need much better subs but failing that you need something to rein in that amp so it's not vaporizing voice coils. For this genre you don't want more than about 1000w/box which means a limiter at 3dB down from full output.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 10:09:21 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Brian Strachan

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2018, 10:17:31 pm »

Too bad I am just seeing this thread because that was my prediction when I read your plan to use the PL.

 You don't have 1 blown driver you have 2 at least... you just don't know it yet, the "survivor" in that box has been cooked within seconds of oblivion and will most likely fail the next time it is used. Same goes for the other box too.
 Black Widows are not an upgrade.. don't be fooled by the power rating, but Lowriders would be and incidentally are what is found in the QW subs.
 If you do this you want all drivers to match so don't upgrade the boxes you have just get some OEM replacement drivers or recones. Adding more boxes is free output form increased driver displacement which means you can have the same SPL while running all of them at a more conservative power level which gives the drivers a better chance of surviving. What have you got to limit this beast? You really need much better subs but failing that you need something to rein in that amp so it's not vaporizing voice coils. For this genre you don't want more than about 1000w/box which means a limiter at 3dB down from full output.

To be honest I saw it coming as well. Thatís why Iím not particularly upset as I knew better.

I actually misspoke I believe. Iím aware the low riders are better subs and I believe also have inexpensive re-come kits (I think). Thatís the direction I was leaning towards.

I was intentionally planning to use 4 cabs of the SW218s to achieve the same SPL at a lower power level and thus less abuse on each driver. Itís still an option, but trust me Iíd rather just have something better than entry level subs. Budget is the issue. I might just be met with the ďthis is the gear you have, here are the limitsĒ type of Situation.

PL-380 is down stream from a drivrack PA2 and a Soundcraft Ui16.

Ultimately I am consistently searching for more low end (this is probably obvious by me saying we play EDM and I have entry level subs)  so Iím thinking Iím just going to have to wait, bite the Bullet and buy myself some real subs.
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2018, 04:07:14 am »

DIY is worth considering.
You lose brand recognition, but the price-to-performance ratio is off the scale.
I'd expect a B&C 18SW115 in a 35Hz tapped horn to cheerfully annihilate the 2x Yamaha 2x18" cabs.

Top-tier drivers are well worth having IME. They sound better, go louder, and last longer under abusive conditions.

Chris

PS - I'm sure the guys around here are sick of me posting it, so PM me for a video of what you can do with 2x15"s a side.
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Brian Strachan

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2018, 08:58:33 am »

DIY is worth considering.
You lose brand recognition, but the price-to-performance ratio is off the scale.
I'd expect a B&C 18SW115 in a 35Hz tapped horn to cheerfully annihilate the 2x Yamaha 2x18" cabs.

Top-tier drivers are well worth having IME. They sound better, go louder, and last longer under abusive conditions.

Chris

PS - I'm sure the guys around here are sick of me posting it, so PM me for a video of what you can do with 2x15"s a side.

Funny you say that, because those were the exact same drivers I was looking at purchasing. Unfortunately what I am NOT good at is building cabinets and I canít say I know anyone off hand who is.

PMing you now
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2018, 11:59:39 am »

You likely killed the Yammy's with over-excursion, which is the result of operation below cutoff (with EDM, really? /sarc) and with too much power as well (with EDM, really? /sarc).

To do what you want requires vastly more acoustic output capability than you're looking at with swapping drivers.

What are you limitations for size, weight, and cost?
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Brian Strachan

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2018, 02:41:27 pm »

You likely killed the Yammy's with over-excursion, which is the result of operation below cutoff (with EDM, really? /sarc) and with too much power as well (with EDM, really? /sarc).

To do what you want requires vastly more acoustic output capability than you're looking at with swapping drivers.

What are you limitations for size, weight, and cost?

I agree with 100% of that. Again, Iím not surprised I lost a driver.

Size and weight are no concern. Iím 22, have a trailer and dollies.

Cost is the biggest factor for me. I also need to do 1 more show on the 21st which means I need to figure out what equipment I will use. If I have to rent, I suppose I can.

I thought about some TH118s, but finding them is hard and finding them for less than $5k seems to be difficult as well. I canít see spending any more than that (if even that) on subs.
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #17 on: Today at 08:12:35 am »

I agree with 100% of that. Again, Iím not surprised I lost a driver.

Size and weight are no concern. Iím 22, have a trailer and dollies.

Cost is the biggest factor for me. I also need to do 1 more show on the 21st which means I need to figure out what equipment I will use. If I have to rent, I suppose I can.

I thought about some TH118s, but finding them is hard and finding them for less than $5k seems to be difficult as well. I canít see spending any more than that (if even that) on subs.

You could consider the diy route.  There are a few decent options, Art Welters Keystone sub, reasonably simple to build and by all reports sound very good. 

There is a Xoc1 TH18, somewhat based on the Danley TH118, though I believe the internals are slightly different.  These have received a lot of praise, even by people who are familiar with the Danley.  I built my own take on these (made some mods to the internals), these are seriously good, but donít try to save money on the drivers.  They are complicated to build, so I did the design on cad and had the cabinets cut on a cnc machine, glued and screwed them together and finally got them sprayed with speaker finish. 

Another option is the Othorn, a 21inch tapped horn, heavy and difficult to construct, but have quite a few fans.  There is also a very good double 18 ported cab on the 18 Sound website, but obviously that will cost more in drivers.  All the above options will compete with good and above commercial options providing you power them correctly and install the righ, high quality drivers.

This is all assuming you have sufficient diy skills or know someone that will do the build for you cheaply.  As a guide, I am building some of the subs for someone at £650 each less the driver which would be about about £1100 total, perhaps around $1500 in the States.  I think the other designs I mentioned would be around this give or take $200, the double 18Ē would obviously cost the price of a second driver so closer $2000.

Downsides, rider acceptance, low resale value, but then they donít cost much.  Iím fortunate in that my customers rarely ask what Iím supplying and just trust that whatever I bring will sound good and do the job.
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #18 on: Today at 08:34:03 am »

I think it's worth noting that the Orthorn tapped horn is tuned quite a lot lower than the rest of the designs mentioned here, and will give roughly 10Hz more extension. The down-side is the extra size and weight you'll have to carry while the output levels will be comparable.

Chris
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Mixmatching subs?
« Reply #19 on: Today at 11:06:48 am »

I think it's worth noting that the Orthorn tapped horn is tuned quite a lot lower than the rest of the designs mentioned here, and will give roughly 10Hz more extension. The down-side is the extra size and weight you'll have to carry while the output levels will be comparable.

Chris

This is indeed the case.  What I think needs to be considered is wether having a speaker reproduce 20hz in concert sound is of any real use.  My 18 inch tapped horns will do 30hz before rolling off (I actually have a 24db/Oct filter at 28hz, this helps protects the driver).  I suspect some EDM freaks will like what the Othorn can do, but itís a trade off.  With 20hz tuning, you could expect potential issues at 40 and 80 hz, within your low pass range, higher tuning of around 30-35hz should leave only one within the pass-band.  At Plasa this year I heard some cardioid horn subs that although their low corner was 38hz, sounded very big and full.  Obviously we could debate for hours, but in my experience, flat 20hz subs give little benefit for the vast majority of gigs.  YMMV of course. 😊
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