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[Brian Strachan]

For the applications you've mentioned, replacing the subs with better would be a very good decision.  Replacing them with something unknown with zero resale value - not so much.   JTR Orbit Shifter or Danley TH118 are the two I'd look at first. 

After deciding on the subs - then look at amps.  The PL380 is good, but Powersoft K3 or K10 would unlock more potential, depending on sub.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

I can understand your argument about buying name brand, known subs and I will consider that. One of the places I've done sound with a few times has a pair of those Danley's and single 18" drivers simply do not keep up with how much sound we are trying to make. The EDM community loves bass more than anyone else. In fact the last show I did at that venue we used 4 (yes 4) cabinets of dual 18s to get the wall shake the event coordinators wanted.

As for the power soft amplifiers, they simply do not fit into my price range. I know a couple people personally who'd be willing to sell me PL380s they have currently collecting dust.

[Caleb Dueck]

I can understand your argument about buying name brand, known subs and I will consider that. One of the places I've done sound with a few times has a pair of those Danley's and single 18" drivers simply do not keep up with how much sound we are trying to make. The EDM community loves bass more than anyone else. In fact the last show I did at that venue we used 4 (yes 4) cabinets of dual 18s to get the wall shake the event coordinators wanted.

As for the power soft amplifiers, they simply do not fit into my price range. I know a couple people personally who'd be willing to sell me PL380s they have currently collecting dust.

If you can get PL380s for under $1k each - go for it!

My point regarding the subs above - assuming premium drivers - is that horn or tapped horn designs deliver the most bass possible per driver.  4x 18" drivers in the form of Orbit Shifters, DBH218's, TH118's - is going to be far ahead of any 2x 218 front loaded subs. 

Going from budget drivers in a front loaded sub, to premium drivers in a front loaded sub is a step up.  The next step up is lots more subs, or more efficient subs (horn loaded).  Hence the recommendation to skip the higher cost front loaded designs and go a step better. 

Regarding EDM bass - I'd also argue that Danley is a top brand in that genre.  The systems I've had a hand designing, knowing there was EDM style bass needed - has always been Danley. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

[Mike Caldwell]

I think you might have misunderstood me. Each sub is powered by its own XTi2000 in bridge. Is that not an okay thing to do?

I forgot to mention I am using a DBX Drive Rack PA2 to run the mains. It will be doing the crossover for the high/mid and lows for the main speakers.

I haven’t been running the subs off the drive rack though because I use them off of an aux send from my mixer.

Edit: I see now that powering my subs from 1 XTi4000 subs in bridge would be poor judgement. That slipped my mind. I think that’s what you might have meant?

Sorry I was in a hurry and missed that you were using an XTI2000 per sub.

Are these XTI's the older silver face models as the model 2000 and 4000 would suggest or are they the newer 02 versions.
With the XTI's you can do all of the crossover functions in the, the 02 versions have better limiting though.
You need to down the Band Manager from Crown to get into the amp and fully program it.

[David Allred]

The SP4's are quasi-3-way.  There is a coil to cut the upper 15" off at 300hz (if I recall) to limit mid freq cancelations in the box.  You might investigate if that circuit is still active in bi-amp mode.  My guess is yes (and now as I write this, it would be a major oversight in a bi-ampable box by a major manufacturer).

[Craig Hauber]

I think you might have misunderstood me. Each sub is powered by its own XTi2000 in bridge. Is that not an okay thing to do?

Running a 4-ohm box off a single bridged amp is the same as running that amp in stereo with a 2-ohm load on each channel.
Are the XTi2000 a "2-ohm stable" amplifier?
"Stability" aside, do the perform and sound decent at 2-ohms?

Because just being stable at 2-ohms means the amp won't destroy itself, but doesn't necessarily mean it's going to perform best with that load.

I've also dealt with some switching PSU amps in installs that actually advertise less power at 2-ohm than they do at 4!

I can't speak for the Crown as I've never used it and was referring to the considerations running any amp at that low an impedance.  I'm sure there are others on this forum that know exactly how it behaves.

I do however know from experience that the RMX 2450 does well at 4-ohm bridged and it's full output will eventually hurt those yammi dual-18's if run at FTB all night long!

[Gary Weller]

Crown xti 2000 & 4000 sound terrible on subs. Your 2450 would sound better, though not as powerful wattage wise. Bi-amping the SP-4s will not do much either. The way the SP-4s are set up you might try running them full range and using the 218 boxes as "extra subs on aux and see if they play nice together using the dbx to process the aux subs.

 Also borrow one of the PL 380s and I think you'll be surprised how much better the low end is. You can only do so much with those grade of subs. 

[Tim McCulloch]

A few thoughts, in no particular order...

1) if you need significantly more SPL, you need a new system.  You're very close to maxed out with this rig.  It will cost more than everything you've spent on audio from the time you started until the day you make the decision to upgrade.  Forum user Jay Barracatto named this "+3dB$".  You might scoff but in nearly 40 years of pimping audio, I've found this to be true whether you're making your 1st or 4th upgrade.  "The next level" is expensive.

2) if you're just looking to improve the perceived sound quality of your existing rig then biamping *might* help, depending mostly on what you or your clients consider an improvement.  It's a slippery slope that you can throw lots of money at if you don't have a measurable target/goal for your "improvements" - to the point you could have just bought a new system.  BT,DT, gave away the t shirt.

3) the comments about the original series of XTi amps is spot on.  We have 14 XTi4000 in our shop and use them for bi-amped stage monitors (fine in that application).  I tried one on a sub after reading about the poor results forum users were reporting.  Back then I had only original ITech 8000 and an old Crest 8001 in our shop to compare.  The XTi simply isn't in the same class as either of them so I wasn't surprised it came up short... but the *002 series XTi are much, much better and we use them in our side fill amp racks (EAW KF850 with JBL SRX728 subs) with great success, and we don't bridge them...

How does providing audio services work for you financially?  By that I'm asking if you're a new/small 'sound company' or if your owning gear and providing it is ancillary to being a DJ (or or lighting/video designer/operator).  I ask because it points to intended use - when you're the sole operator of a system you can buy whatever makes you happy, but when you have to let other people use it as part of your small business, things change - a lot sometimes - and that also will affect the advice you get.

A couple more things:

4) the wrong product at the 'right price' is still the wrong product

5) buy once, cry once.

6) excess capacity is infinitely expensive.

Don't buy something because it's on sale or a buddy is 'giving you a deal'.  Deals come around all the time.  Buy what you need to achieve the identified performance level.  If that costs more, it's still cheaper than making multiple, lateral purchases that don't give a noticeable improvement in either sound quality or SPL (see #2 above), but don't buy significantly more than you need, as you'll not recover that investment.

Finally, if you're doing sound for compensation you need to write up a business plan.  It's for YOU, not a banker or investor.  It's so you can identify where, when and how much money *might* come in and when, where, and on what expenses that money will leave your hand.  The business plan is not carved in stone, but without a written set of goals, objectives and some idea of cash flow, you'll find it difficult to determine if you're headed in the right direction.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

[Brian Strachan]

I have to say I did not expect this wealth of information. Thank you to all who are contributing.

Since it would be crazy to reply to everything above, let me try and make my goals clear. I am ultimately trying to improve the overall sound quality and power my of current system. My small business is serving me one simple goal. That is for me to gain experience tuning my ears, working with different types of equipment and learning the business structure on a small scale where I have little to lose. I am not trying to become a rental company or a fully fledged production company. I am just for now wanting to have the equipment I need to provide loud sound for a few hundred people in small venues.

My biggest factor concerning me is the amount of bass I am able to produce and for now it's quite obvious to me my subs are NOT set up correctly in terms of amps. At this point the only move I want to make is getting the right amount of power to my subs with an amp that will sound good on them. I have what I need to Bi-Amp my mains, so no expenditure will be made there. I found a PL380 for $1100 shipped to my door which I think will serve my needs well and get me to where I need and want to be.

The Crown amps I have ARE the older silver face amps. There are not the "2"s. I am aware of their DSP features and have been using them mildly within their respective PC programs.

I am thinking in the not so distant future I may want to upgrade in terms of subs, but that will entirely depend on the improvement made by the new amp. If I feel I need to make a dramatic upgrade in subs, then I will reevaluate my business plan and decide if that will really be worth my time. As stated, this is a short term business that allows me to cut my teeth and figure things out while also getting some of my money back out of it, which I have. I am interning at a much large venue in town and learning a GREAT deal and believe that there are bigger opportunities that could be coming my way. The work that I am doing with this equipment is only meant to supplement that and allow to me HAVE FUN with my gear, friends and community that loves this genre of music in a small setting.

[Brian Strachan]

Running a 4-ohm box off a single bridged amp is the same as running that amp in stereo with a 2-ohm load on each channel.

Could you elaborate on this simply because I do not understand?

Just from reading amplifier manuals, I have been lead to believe that a bridged amp connected to a 4 ohm speaker results in a 4ohm setup. Why would switching to the bridged mode cut that resistance in half?

I am learning a ton here guys, so please feel free to keep it coming!

[Brian Strachan]

If you can get PL380s for under $1k each - go for it!

My point regarding the subs above - assuming premium drivers - is that horn or tapped horn designs deliver the most bass possible per driver.  4x 18" drivers in the form of Orbit Shifters, DBH218's, TH118's - is going to be far ahead of any 2x 218 front loaded subs. 

Going from budget drivers in a front loaded sub, to premium drivers in a front loaded sub is a step up.  The next step up is lots more subs, or more efficient subs (horn loaded).  Hence the recommendation to skip the higher cost front loaded designs and go a step better. 

Regarding EDM bass - I'd also argue that Danley is a top brand in that genre.  The systems I've had a hand designing, knowing there was EDM style bass needed - has always been Danley. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

I will keep Danley in mind. I need to do research on the different styles of subs because I'm not familiar with the differences.

Also! I was wrong. The place that has 2 Danley's actually have a pair of single 15"s, not 18"s. That's likely why they have not kept up despite usually sounding very good.

[ProSoundWeb Community]