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Author Topic: Reverberant room  (Read 3561 times)

Bob Kidd

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2018, 08:14:48 am »

Give everyone a set of IR headphones........
Seriously, aim for the people, keep from exciting the room modes. Get serious control of the on-stage spill into the room. If the band isn't on ears, get them for this gig.
My "guys" were going for a serious "upgrade" in where they could play (and charge), so they listened to everything I said/suggested. They got a dozen high-end weddings from that one show.
Chris.

Unfortunately, this band won't do IEMs. Definitely dealing with stage volume as well.
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brian maddox

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2018, 10:25:31 am »

...
My "guys" were going for a serious "upgrade" in where they could play (and charge), so they listened to everything I said/suggested. They got a dozen high-end weddings from that one show.
Chris.

those "guys" are smart "guys".

There are so few bands that are actually willing to do what is required to do the high-end [and high paying] work.  Which is part of why it's high-paying i suppose. 

Funny thing is, in this modern digital equipment era, the things needed aren't really that expensive.  It's just understanding what the customer wants [a nice variety of live music at a completely controllable volume] and then being willing to make the compromises necessary to deliver that.
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"It feels wrong to be in the audience.  And it's too peopley!" - Steve Smith

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Robert Piascik

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2018, 10:53:48 am »

those "guys" are smart "guys".

There are so few bands that are actually willing to do what is required to do the high-end [and high paying] work.  Which is part of why it's high-paying i suppose. 

Funny thing is, in this modern digital equipment era, the things needed aren't really that expensive.  It's just understanding what the customer wants [a nice variety of live music at a completely controllable volume] and then being willing to make the compromises necessary to deliver that.

^^^ yep ^^^

That’s why I listen whenever this “guy” speaks
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2018, 11:09:39 am »

Unfortunately, this band won't do IEMs. Definitely dealing with stage volume as well.

Then the problem is not yours, in fact.  It will be your problem in the eyes of the client, though.

The band needs a "come to Jesus meeting" as they say down in Texas... and come out of it with the idea that they are a service that could just as easily be replaced with a karoake host or DJ.
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Bob Kidd

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2018, 11:26:22 am »

Then the problem is not yours, in fact.  It will be your problem in the eyes of the client, though.

The band needs a "come to Jesus meeting" as they say down in Texas... and come out of it with the idea that they are a service that could just as easily be replaced with a karoake host or DJ.


Tim, 100% agree. Band hired me and from what they say are very used to the reflection in room. Doesn't mean they should accept as is. I digress, do you think given this situation it's better to not use 4 double 18s and 725s? Rather go with possibly 812s up on sticks tilted down to minimize they reflection? Fairly size room, maybe 50 x 90. But really loud accoustics. Would think keeping volume down would be better then cranking larger system. Thanks!
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Chris Hindle

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2018, 12:21:16 pm »

Unfortunately, this band won't do IEMs. Definitely dealing with stage volume as well.
Sorry to say it, but you've  already lost.
My "guys" went from $1,500 a night, to 6 grand.
Back in the early 2000's.
Today, it's cheaper, faster, and easier to get that gear in.
Chris.
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Ya, Whatever. Just throw a '57 on it, and get off my stage.

brian maddox

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2018, 01:29:01 pm »

Sorry to say it, but you've  already lost.
My "guys" went from $1,500 a night, to 6 grand.
Back in the early 2000's.
Today, it's cheaper, faster, and easier to get that gear in.
Chris.

i was just unpacking this issue [bad rooms, dance bands, how to make it work] and realized something...

At the end of the day, this issue is ALL about stage volume.  And the root cause of stage volume is...

1. Drums are loud and
2. Guitar players can't get their 'sound' without winding up an amplifier.

99 percent of corporate/wedding/high-end party clients would be OverJoyed if we simply used Digital Drums and ran guitars direct through a modeler, [and IEMs obviously], thereby rendering the Band volume Completely Controllable.  All they want is the excitement of Live Music at volume levels that they can control the way they can control Pre-Recorded Music [DJ etc.].  "You want us to play Mustang Sally and still have polite dinner conversation levels?  Done!" 

So, literally the thing that keeps bands from going from the "i barely get gas money" to "i make a living playing in a band" is that Drummers Hate digital drums and Guitar players [often] Hate modelers.

Yes, this is an over-simplification.  And Yes i know why drummers/guitarists hate digital, blah, blah blah.  But it's just funny when you put it all into context. 
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"It feels wrong to be in the audience.  And it's too peopley!" - Steve Smith

brian maddox
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'...do not trifle with the affairs of dragons...

       ....for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup...'

Scott Holtzman

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2018, 08:32:51 pm »

i was just unpacking this issue [bad rooms, dance bands, how to make it work] and realized something...

At the end of the day, this issue is ALL about stage volume.  And the root cause of stage volume is...

1. Drums are loud and
2. Guitar players can't get their 'sound' without winding up an amplifier.

99 percent of corporate/wedding/high-end party clients would be OverJoyed if we simply used Digital Drums and ran guitars direct through a modeler, [and IEMs obviously], thereby rendering the Band volume Completely Controllable.  All they want is the excitement of Live Music at volume levels that they can control the way they can control Pre-Recorded Music [DJ etc.].  "You want us to play Mustang Sally and still have polite dinner conversation levels?  Done!" 

So, literally the thing that keeps bands from going from the "i barely get gas money" to "i make a living playing in a band" is that Drummers Hate digital drums and Guitar players [often] Hate modelers.

Yes, this is an over-simplification.  And Yes i know why drummers/guitarists hate digital, blah, blah blah.  But it's just funny when you put it all into context.

Can you also please explain to me why keyboard players, highly experienced guys with pro-tools, perfect sample doing fly dates still have to have a wedge pointed back at the audience at head level.  It's as sacred as a guitar players "tone". 

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brian maddox

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2018, 08:58:26 am »

Can you also please explain to me why keyboard players, highly experienced guys with pro-tools, perfect sample doing fly dates still have to have a wedge pointed back at the audience at head level.  It's as sacred as a guitar players "tone".

Well, i haven't had that be as common as the guitar player situation, but i suspect the two are directly related to each other.  I suspect the keyboard player wants to 'Control" his own tone and also is used to having to make sure his level is sufficient to not be obliterated by the Guitars.

Maybe the real crux of what i was trying to say is that all of these "technical" problems aren't technical problems at all.  They are Human Centric problems whereby certain humans that should be expending their energy and effort on the result for the audience instead are spending that same E and E on the their own personal experience.

Of course, i should add that i spent 5 years as the music director on stage for a large church and i did expend a great deal of effort on making sure that my IEM mix was outstanding.  So i probably need to "remove the beam from my own eye" first before casting aspersions on someone else's small speck of dust.
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"It feels wrong to be in the audience.  And it's too peopley!" - Steve Smith

brian maddox
bdmaudio@gmail.com

'...do not trifle with the affairs of dragons...

       ....for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup...'

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2018, 01:30:20 pm »

Well, i haven't had that be as common as the guitar player situation, but i suspect the two are directly related to each other.  I suspect the keyboard player wants to 'Control" his own tone and also is used to having to make sure his level is sufficient to not be obliterated by the Guitars.

Maybe the real crux of what i was trying to say is that all of these "technical" problems aren't technical problems at all.  They are Human Centric problems whereby certain humans that should be expending their energy and effort on the result for the audience instead are spending that same E and E on the their own personal experience.

Of course, i should add that i spent 5 years as the music director on stage for a large church and i did expend a great deal of effort on making sure that my IEM mix was outstanding.  So i probably need to "remove the beam from my own eye" first before casting aspersions on someone else's small speck of dust.

Those aren't small specks of dust, Brian.  Those are beams, too.  You can't see how big they are when your own 'vision' is obscured by genuine humility.

Whatever ain't physics, is psychology.

My training in music performance is best described at "formal."  Many low-end players have little, if any formal training and have almost zero experience performing acoustically in an ensemble setting.  That is the where the "failure to communicate" comes from.  Toss in that most players practice (if they do so at all) in a small room without SPL limitations.  Between TTS in their hearing and the enclosed cabin acoustics, they get a false indication of both SPL and tone and attempt to create those on open stages to the detriment of the ensemble.

There is little hope for remediation once a player gets used to "his way or the highway".  Perhaps there is a music "re-education camp" somewhere on a gulag...  ::)
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Reverberant room
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2018, 01:30:20 pm »


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