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Author Topic: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$  (Read 997 times)

GT Hill

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Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« on: September 11, 2018, 09:17:15 pm »

System:

Mains: Funktion One Res2s
Subs: Danley 2x TH115 and 1x TH112
Amps: Ashly KLR 2000s and 4000s and necessary
Processor: Ashly Protea ne24.24M

My place has terrible acoustics that will be dealt with eventually but I'm pretty positive that I'm not getting the bass that I should. I figure that standing 4 feet from a TH115 should give a good punch no matter the acoustics.

Volume is not a problem. The subs and mains can get plenty loud but its like the subs are somehow restricted to really do what they are designed to do.

With that said, I don't know what I'm doing.

But here's what I've done.

All subs sound the same. I've done this by muting inside the processor and by turning amps on and off to see if the problem was isolated. I also did this just in case my subs were out of phase somehow. But its a widespread problem.

I've saved my processor file in case someone can look at it.

I've set the LPF and HPF based on specs I've seen recommended from Danley.

Right now I'm just air playing through my Apple TV into a receiver. I also have connected directly from my phone (aux cord) into a small mixing board. Same result.

I really don't know where to go from here.

Speaker wires too long? (They are 50')

Not sure what else to say. Any help is appreciated!

GT Hill
Arkansas

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GT Hill

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Re: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2018, 06:18:57 pm »

Hi everyone! Just bumping to see if anyone would have some thoughts. Thank you very much!

GT
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Jeremy Young

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Re: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2018, 07:41:42 pm »


Hi GT,

How is your rig deployed?  Do you have any photos of the space?


How are your crossovers set between the 15" driver on the funktion-one cabinet and your Danley subwoofers?  Do you have any delay in your processor between the outputs?  Have you checked your speaker cabling for polarity inversions?  Any chance there's a speaker cabinet that has had a driver replaced or removed at some point that could have caused the wiring inside to be polarity-reversed?  Does your processor have variations in the output send levels going to the amplifiers?  Do the amplifiers have the same sensitivity and/or do they have sensitivity selection switches?  If you have multiple subs in a line together with only one operating, the others can end up absorbing some of that energy.  Also don't underestimate the cancellation power of a well-placed boundary (or poorly placed depending on your opinion). 

I don't have any first-hand experience with any of the equipment in your list, just stepping up to see if I can help.  Both top cabs and subs are very efficient, so you should be getting quite a bit of output even with modest input levels.  If the volume is not a problem, can you try to explain again in your words what the issue is?  Have you used the TH115 cabs in other venues?  Sometimes people are so used to listening to distorted bass that they hear a clean sounding cab like these and think it's quiet even though the SPL meter reads the same or louder than a different cabinet with more distortion.  Just some thoughts to get the conversation started.
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Laurence Nefzger

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Re: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2018, 07:47:43 pm »

Hi GT,
"Punch" is such a subjective term I have a hard time understanding what you feel the issue is. You state that there is plenty of volume.
Do you have the ability to move the rig out of the acoustically compromised space to confirm the issue - like out doors?
You are correct that you have spent a considerable amount of money and should be able to achieve extremely positive results. The subs you list are very high quality!

If you are using known good speaker wires (14 gauge or larger) 50 feet is not a distance that might cause problems.
Are the speakers separated or clustered together? Clustering should give more output as the speakers will "couple". Separation can cause destructive interference. Though there is a caveat that speakers of different design might not couple as well as matched speakers.

I think I need more information on your set up before I can shotgun either solutions or the cause of your perceived issues.

Also - I suspect your post would have gotten far more views if it had originated in the "Lounge" forum.
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GT Hill

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Re: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2018, 10:38:51 pm »

Hi GT,

How is your rig deployed?  Do you have any photos of the space?


How are your crossovers set between the 15" driver on the funktion-one cabinet and your Danley subwoofers?  Do you have any delay in your processor between the outputs?  Have you checked your speaker cabling for polarity inversions?  Any chance there's a speaker cabinet that has had a driver replaced or removed at some point that could have caused the wiring inside to be polarity-reversed?  Does your processor have variations in the output send levels going to the amplifiers?  Do the amplifiers have the same sensitivity and/or do they have sensitivity selection switches?  If you have multiple subs in a line together with only one operating, the others can end up absorbing some of that energy.  Also don't underestimate the cancellation power of a well-placed boundary (or poorly placed depending on your opinion). 

I don't have any first-hand experience with any of the equipment in your list, just stepping up to see if I can help.  Both top cabs and subs are very efficient, so you should be getting quite a bit of output even with modest input levels.  If the volume is not a problem, can you try to explain again in your words what the issue is?  Have you used the TH115 cabs in other venues?  Sometimes people are so used to listening to distorted bass that they hear a clean sounding cab like these and think it's quiet even though the SPL meter reads the same or louder than a different cabinet with more distortion.  Just some thoughts to get the conversation started.

Jeremy,

Thank you for the questions and the thoughts.

A few of your first questions are with regards to polarity. Although I could have made a mistake with one, I'd hope I didn't do it will all three. But to check, I reversed the polarity in the processor and I didn't hear much of a difference.

The bass with the entire system running isn't great so the testing I've been doing is with one sub at a time. They all sound the same. Even the 15" in the Funktion Ones don't sound great.

I've never used any of these outside of the current location. These are in the launch control center of a decommissioned nuclear missile silo (Titan II) so being 55' underground... its a pain to move them elsewhere for testing. But I may need to do that to get a sense of performance elsewhere.

Maybe I'll make a video of the entire setup? That may help give some context.

I know I didn't answer your processing / crossover questions. I'm doing all of that with the Ashly processor. The only filters I have enable are HPF and LPF. I set them per Danley's suggestions.

Thanks again!

GT
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GT Hill

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Re: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2018, 10:48:43 pm »

Hi GT,
"Punch" is such a subjective term I have a hard time understanding what you feel the issue is. You state that there is plenty of volume.
Do you have the ability to move the rig out of the acoustically compromised space to confirm the issue - like out doors?
You are correct that you have spent a considerable amount of money and should be able to achieve extremely positive results. The subs you list are very high quality!

If you are using known good speaker wires (14 gauge or larger) 50 feet is not a distance that might cause problems.
Are the speakers separated or clustered together? Clustering should give more output as the speakers will "couple". Separation can cause destructive interference. Though there is a caveat that speakers of different design might not couple as well as matched speakers.

I think I need more information on your set up before I can shotgun either solutions or the cause of your perceived issues.

Also - I suspect your post would have gotten far more views if it had originated in the "Lounge" forum.

Thanks for the thoughts Lawrence.

I know its quite subjective and I apologize for that. I've been in small bars with a DJ that sound better than this. That give me sads. :-)

The speaker wires are 12 or 14 gauge so no problems there.

Regarding the constructive or destructive interference... I've been testing these separately to check for that. Doesn't seem to yield any good troubleshooting results.

I'm new to the forum. Why is "lounge" better? Should I ask for it to be moved?

Thanks!

GT

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Corey Scogin

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Re: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2018, 11:13:13 pm »

Have you moved the subs around in the room that you're in?
Even standing 4' in front of one sub running, you may have significant cancellation depending on the distance from walls, room dimensions, etc.

You could try the home theater sub positioning approach...put a sub in the listening area and walk around the room all the way to edges and corners and see where it sounds the best--putting your head at sub level near the floor. That may not be a position you can leave it in but it will reveal a bit about your space.
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Lou Kohley

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Re: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2018, 11:17:58 pm »

Just to cover all our bases.  What is the connection from the airplay receiver to the dsp and then to the amp. Is the stereo signal getting summed properly. Could it be cancelling due to a polarity inversion there?

Good luck.

LOU
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2018, 01:39:32 am »

Thanks for the thoughts Lawrence.

I know its quite subjective and I apologize for that. I've been in small bars with a DJ that sound better than this. That give me sads. :-)

The speaker wires are 12 or 14 gauge so no problems there.

Regarding the constructive or destructive interference... I've been testing these separately to check for that. Doesn't seem to yield any good troubleshooting results.

I'm new to the forum. Why is "lounge" better? Should I ask for it to be moved?

Thanks!

GT

This forum is for touring audio questions, the subject is more suited for the lounge.  Many of us troll without much regard to the category but the mods try and herd the cats into the right container.

Two TH-115's by themselves in that room should be devastating.  They sum really well so I would have the side by side with the horns touching for best coupling. 

My advice to you would be to simplify things and use an app on your phone or an AF signal generator and send some sine waves to the power amp and measure the SPL in the room and see if you are wildly out of spec.

"In God we trust, all others bring data"

 

 
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

GT Hill

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Re: Poor bass - But not for a lack of spending $$$
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2018, 11:05:14 am »

Have you moved the subs around in the room that you're in?
Even standing 4' in front of one sub running, you may have significant cancellation depending on the distance from walls, room dimensions, etc.

You could try the home theater sub positioning approach...put a sub in the listening area and walk around the room all the way to edges and corners and see where it sounds the best--putting your head at sub level near the floor. That may not be a position you can leave it in but it will reveal a bit about your space.

The subs are about 5' away from the wall. The room is a 37' diameter circle. So in terms of walls, there's nothing really to the sides and the nearest "back" wall is about 30' away.

GT
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