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[John Roberts {JR}]

Do not expect easy answers to complex questions. We have discussed this at length right here as long as I can remember here being here.

This is not some scam or conspiracy, it's just complicated and few customers are willing to do the work to understand the complicated answers so will always be led around by the nose chasing "simple" but wrong answers to complicated questions.

JR

[Pat Semeraro]

Why would they? What is in it for them?

Rob, I would think everything.  Showing that your box is cleaner, more efficient, has more maximum output, (or is smaller with same output) is more dynamically accurate, etc. than your competitors would be powerful information for manufacturers to share with prospective buyers.

Pat

[Dave Garoutte]

Marketing is not about the truth.

[John Roberts {JR}]

never mind

JR

[Pat Semeraro]

Hi Pat-

And that circles us back to "numbers can't tell us what something *sounds* like".

Tim, you and I (mostly) agree on your points and that's why I suggest the manufacturer do the measurements. If we trust a manufacturer to build the tools we use to earn a living, we should be able to trust them to tell us how those tools work.   

I was also specific about measuring outside, as measuring inside is often problematic (expecially at very low frequencies) unless you're in a chamber.  And measuring in a chamber can tell us some useful stuff but will not tell us how that sub sounds in a parking lot.  The same way that measuring a car on a dyno will not tell us how fast it "feels" or how fast it actually goes, but does give useful data to back up why the car goes or feels that way it does.

Part of my issue is the numbers that manufacturers share.  A phase trace, a transfer function measurement of a dynamic signal, (I suggested the most famous kick drum in history) and a waterfall plot can tell us a lot about how a sub will "sound" and tell us even more about how a sub sounds different at different power levels. 5 minutes of 30Hz tells us much more about power handling than the fake number on the spec sheet. Instead, we get specs like "calculated maximum output" and "6000 watts max power handling" that tell us little about what a sub can do in use.

As customers, I guess we've become ok with that because certain products "work well" or "sound good" or "everybody uses them", etc.      We're relying on opinions instead of data.

I'm not trying to fulfill a rider for this particular project and its not like I can go to the "sub store" and compare the top 6 touring subs with the top 6 alts subs to even form an "opinion" about what "I think" "sounds good" or be able to understand size vs cost vs output vs durability in an empirically meaningful way.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Pat

[Pat Semeraro]

Marketing is not about the truth.

Dave, that sounds cynical.  I've posed what I believe is a serious question and am not sure how your response helps move my understanding forward?

Pat

[David Sturzenbecher]

Rob, I would think everything.  Showing that your box is cleaner, more efficient, has more maximum output, (or is smaller with same output) is more dynamically accurate, etc. than your competitors would be powerful information for manufacturers to share with prospective buyers.

Pat

[scenario]
I can prove my box is cleaner, but the other guys box is more efficient, and someone elses box box has more max output.

I dont think I want to post results that show someone elses box beat me in two categories.
[/scenario]

You forgot to mention cheaper.

[Pat Semeraro]

Because all the numbers are made up. 

The only way to compare is with your ears.

Rick, I'm sure you're a nice guy and maybe I've just misunderstood the meaning of your post.
Your response sounds more like a strong opinion than a reasonable statement of fact.  I'm trying to answer a serious question and there are people here that I respect and trust offering thoughtful responses. 

Pat

[Pat Semeraro]

[scenario]
I can prove my box is cleaner, but the other guys box is more efficient, and someone elses box box has more max output.

I dont think I want to post results that show someone elses box beat me in two categories.
[/scenario]

You forgot to mention cheaper.

David, I get it... but I'm not looking for the cheapest box.  Those shoppers have different requirements.  I'm struggling to find some way of doing a cost/benefit analysis that uses real data. 

[David Sturzenbecher]

David, I get it... but I'm not looking for the cheapest box.  Those shoppers have different requirements.  I'm struggling to find some way of doing a cost/benefit analysis that uses real data.

I guess what is keeping you from renting in the boxes you are interested in, and taking the measurements that are relevant to you?

[ProSoundWeb Community]