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Author Topic: Integrators selling your product?  (Read 8815 times)

Nathan Riddle

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Integrators selling your product?
« on: August 06, 2018, 07:40:18 pm »

How do you other integrators 'sell' your 'product' without being pushy or demeaning to the church yet still conveying the need/value?

Related question:
How do you keep from designing a system and/or submitting a proposal and then they do it themselves?

Background:
I just finished up at a church adding some XLR runs. (The tech director doesn't think they can solder very well. They're a smart person I think they could...but hey work is work, not complaining :) ) They then wanted to tune the room, having no-where else to be I stuck around to see what they do.

The process was convoluted and not systematic as far as I could tell. Setting xover's to ear with a single random song played over and over (not even one we knew very well). Randomly assign slopes. No gain staging just turn the amps/DSP up randomly. No SMAART, just RTA on DBX for the final curve. 1/2 way through we find out the EQ is on, on the channel. Eyeball the delay settings. Etc. Very hap-hazard.

In the end, they say "I love this (tuning rooms) more than anything else in audio."
Great person, great heart, just very simple in their understanding of sound system tuning.

I can't just say I can do it better, pay me. Because it's their 'thing' the thing they love to do. How might someone explain their 'product' (in this case, system tuning) to someone like that without hurting them?

I don't want to sacrifice love/grace for truth. I want to wield both equally.

Additionally:
I talked over a lighting system with this church (whom I have a rapport with the pastor and staff at some capacity) and they never responded. I then showed up today and they had done exactly what I suggested. I know their budget is low, but that just hit me kinda hard.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 12:27:48 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2018, 08:17:08 pm »

Simply put Nathan, whether intentional or more likely just not thoughtful, this church has no respect for your time. I have had this happen a lot over the years. A church ask for a bunch of quotes and then ends up buying online and DIY’ing. They could at least offer a design fee IMO. But, no hard feelings. I just started charging a consultation fee to come out and do a real basic design and narrative suggestion. Then I accompany that consultation report with a quote. Then, if they choose to shop it fine, if they choose to DIY, whatever, etc. I don’t charge a ton, but a couple hundred bucks. Makes it worth my time and also weeds out the not serious folks and people who don’t value your time.
Now if it’s just a simple “you need 6 pars across the front” I may not charge, but I have found we waste a LOT less time and close a lot more sales since we took the posture that our time is valuable and our price is professional. If you want the fly by night guy go for it, they’ll call me in 5 years when nothing works right and they are fed up anyway.

On the tuning side that is a lost cause situation. Unless you are willing to just for fun get the Smaart rig out and geek out with him and show him how it’s really done than this guy is so clueless there’s no healthy way to go there IMO.
I might consider this if I thought it would earn $100k renovation project or something, but it doesn’t sound like this is that client on multiple levels.


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MikeHarris

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2018, 03:50:32 am »

I find that you need to start with the DBX and endeavor to teach them just because it performs this function it is sonically not suitable for a professional audio system. Bring in an alternative and tell them to 'step back'
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2018, 12:38:29 pm »

Simply put Nathan, whether intentional or more likely just not thoughtful, this church has no respect for your time.

I have had this happen a lot over the years. A church ask for a bunch of quotes and then ends up buying online and DIY’ing. They could at least offer a design fee IMO. But, no hard feelings.

I just started charging a consultation fee to come out and do a real basic design and narrative suggestion. Then I accompany that consultation report with a quote. Then, if they choose to shop it fine, if they choose to DIY, whatever, etc. I don’t charge a ton, but a couple hundred bucks. Makes it worth my time and also weeds out the not serious folks and people who don’t value your time.

Now if it’s just a simple “you need 6 pars across the front” I may not charge, but I have found we waste a LOT less time and close a lot more sales since we took the posture that our time is valuable and our price is professional. If you want the fly by night guy go for it, they’ll call me in 5 years when nothing works right and they are fed up anyway.

On the tuning side that is a lost cause situation. Unless you are willing to just for fun get the Smaart rig out and geek out with him and show him how it’s really done than this guy is so clueless there’s no healthy way to go there IMO.

I might consider this if I thought it would earn $100k renovation project or something, but it doesn’t sound like this is that client on multiple levels.

Well put. I think I was just a little hurt about it all. But I'll quickly get over it.

I generally agree with the less wasted time & more deals closed attitude. The one time I did a paid demo I sold them the system. The other times... meh who knows?

----

I tried to talk a little about how RTA is time blind and isn't very accurate. Just didn't go over very well. given the: "I get great results all the time doing it by ear" attitude.

I like how Luke Geis puts it:
I am not stuck on the whole " I play this song and I know it so well " that I can tune a PA to it mantra. If it sounds right it is right, doesn't matter what song it is or how well you know it. That being said I do listen to a variety of songs in which I am well aware of the genre and expected sonic content. Any modern pop song will pretty much give you a good idea of where you are sitting though. My feeling is that there is always an idea of what your favorite song should sound like. Familiar with it or not, it does not make your PA tunes any more consistent. If you really need consistency and bias confirmation, you have to resort to Smaart or some other tuning software.

I find that you need to start with the DBX and endeavor to teach them just because it performs this function it is sonically not suitable for a professional audio system. Bring in an alternative and tell them to 'step back'

There's a part of me that wants to do this, but I'm not so sure we can convince/dissuade people from their preconceived notions by calling them out. Seems people are stubborn...

I kinda want to go over their head...
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2018, 06:25:25 pm »

I kinda want to go over their head...

... so call God to come and sort it out for you??

In regards to "I do this all the time like this" attitude-- well, it's going to be difficult to overcome that point of view. But, stay in touch with them. Ask one of your good clients to call them. "I overheard our AV guy, Nathan, mention that he's working on a project for you. Let me tell you! You cannot go wrong with him! He saved us fives and tens of dollars on our last project, and we're SO thankful for his work!"

[Yeah, I know, sucks asking people to lie about you...  ;) ;D ]

But really, make sure they hear "around" that you know your stuff and that you're worth every dollar.

-Ray
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2018, 01:06:34 pm »

... so call God to come and sort it out for you??

You know...I could throw some scripture on them (literally) :P

In regards to "I do this all the time like this" attitude-- well, it's going to be difficult to overcome that point of view. But, stay in touch with them. Ask one of your good clients to call them. "I overheard our AV guy, Nathan, mention that he's working on a project for you. Let me tell you! You cannot go wrong with him! He saved us fives and tens of dollars on our last project, and we're SO thankful for his work!"

[Yeah, I know, sucks asking people to lie about you...  ;) ;D ]

But really, make sure they hear "around" that you know your stuff and that you're worth every dollar.

-Ray

This is gold, great idea for good clean salesmanship. Thanks!

---

So this just happened. Is this a real thing?

I cross posted this topic to the CSMT Professionals group (where integrators lurk) apparently one of the members asks for the cost of the equipment (not the price=their quote), but the integrators cost of parts. They say they want to know the markup and wouldn't buy from a company without knowing the cost and price and markup.

I was/am incredulous and left a rather pointed reply.
Why would anyone want/need that info?
What retailer would give their customer that info?
/confused  ??? ???

Person:
Quote
As Tech Director at a church, I would never contract a job to anyone without knowing exactly what equipment they plan to install, what the equipment actually costs and what the markup is.

Me:
Quote
how would you determine the markup?

Person:
Quote
I determine markup by getting cost on the items. If I know what you paid and what I'm paying then I know the exact markup.

Other person:
Quote
Authorized dealers are often not allowed to give you their “cost” numbers. It violates their dealership agreement with the manufacturer.

Person:
Quote
And in that case I get as much as they are able to give.

Me:
Quote
So you're saying you'd ask me what my cost is and what your price is to calculate my markup? What on earth...? Who does that to a retailer?

"How much for a muffin?"
"$3"
"And how much does it cost you to make it?"
"Uh excuse me??"
"You heard, me how much does your muffin cost .50 or .25?"
"Enough to pay the bills, put some in savings, and pay my employees... Also, none of your beeswax."

Person:
Quote
Your response would be the reason you dont earn the business.


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Ray Aberle

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2018, 05:05:15 pm »

3
So this just happened. Is this a real thing?

I cross posted this topic to the CSMT Professionals group (where integrators lurk) apparently one of the members asks for the cost of the equipment (not the price=their quote), but the integrators cost of parts. They say they want to know the markup and wouldn't buy from a company without knowing the cost and price and markup.

I was/am incredulous and left a rather pointed reply.
Why would anyone want/need that info?
What retailer would give their customer that info?
/confused  ??? ???
Absolutely.

Do Not.

Give out your Cost.

There is no reason for a customer to have your COGS, if for no other reason than it means nothing.

Really. That's the Cost of My Goods -- but that doesn't take into consideration:
- Warranty coverage (cost to help with any warranty problems)
- CODB -- it takes money to maintain a business
- "Freebies" -- shit I throw in to make the sale
- And yes, Profit.

But, but "why do you want to make a profit??!?"

Lemme just tell you that for SOME REASON my mortgage company wants, ya know, REAL MONEY every month. They're not happy with "Oh, well, I cut this group a great deal." They want fives and tens of dollars. Speaking of which, I should probably mail that check now. Ack!

And furthermore-- if I don't make a profit, well, then I won't be able to continue giving you good deals moving forward. And to be candid: this is my main point I make. "I know that I am charging your non-profit money. But, you're ALSO getting top of the line cutting-edge gear. If I don't make money, I cannot afford to continue to upgrade to the best gear possible."

-Ray
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2018, 07:12:23 pm »

You know...I could throw some scripture on them (literally)

This is gold, great idea for good clean salesmanship. Thanks!

---

So this just happened. Is this a real thing?

I cross posted this topic to the CSMT Professionals group (where integrators lurk) apparently one of the members asks for the cost of the equipment (not the price=their quote), but the integrators cost of parts. They say they want to know the markup and wouldn't buy from a company without knowing the cost and price and markup.

I was/am incredulous and left a rather pointed reply.
Why would anyone want/need that info?
What retailer would give their customer that info?
/confused  ??? ???

Person:
Me:
Person:
Other person:
Person:
Me:
Person:
That is very rare.

Here's a sample response- "Sorry, I choose to abide by the dealer agreement I signed, I can't give out that info.  Is there a set mark-up limit you have in mind?  I'm willing to do a 'not to exceed' percentage for this project, where each item is marked up a varying amount up to but not over our agreed amount.  This ensures you're getting a more than fair deal without me breaking my word.  Is this fair and earn your business?"

Those types of clients have red flags all over, and are easy to walk away from. 

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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2018, 01:44:58 am »

You know...I could throw some scripture on them (literally) :P

This is gold, great idea for good clean salesmanship. Thanks!

---

So this just happened. Is this a real thing?

I cross posted this topic to the CSMT Professionals group (where integrators lurk) apparently one of the members asks for the cost of the equipment (not the price=their quote), but the integrators cost of parts. They say they want to know the markup and wouldn't buy from a company without knowing the cost and price and markup.

I was/am incredulous and left a rather pointed reply.
Why would anyone want/need that info?
What retailer would give their customer that info?
/confused  ??? ???

Person:
Me:
Person:
Other person:
Person:
Me:
Person:

Nate, why do you consider to concern yourself with assholes?  Who would want that person as a customer?  I can't imagine how they would treat me after the sale.

There are so many wonderful customers who understand their vendors are partners and treat them as such.  Seek out those relationships.

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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2018, 08:03:18 am »

That is very rare.

Those types of clients have red flags all over, and are easy to walk away from. 

But it does happen...?

I Don't Even..

Nate, why do you consider to concern yourself with assholes?  Who would want that person as a customer?  I can't imagine how they would treat me after the sale.

There are so many wonderful customers who understand their vendors are partners and treat them as such.  Seek out those relationships.

I would prefer 'Nathan' thanks.

Perhaps I'm a glutton for punishment?

But in all honesty, I set the price for my work (XLR termination) and I got paid for it. I was/am happy with that part.

I just know that y'all have more experience dealing with these kinds of situations (hap-hazard tuning & stolen ideas), so I know I can grow and learn from these situations.

The person on FB... I have no idea. They say they were an integrator and now are a tech director. Why they have the idea that an integrator/retailer should give them their COGS I have no idea. That's an outlier. I wouldn't deal with them as far as I can throw them.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2018, 11:21:38 am »

But it does happen...?

I Don't Even..

I would prefer 'Nathan' thanks.

Perhaps I'm a glutton for punishment?

But in all honesty, I set the price for my work (XLR termination) and I got paid for it. I was/am happy with that part.

I just know that y'all have more experience dealing with these kinds of situations (hap-hazard tuning & stolen ideas), so I know I can grow and learn from these situations.

The person on FB... I have no idea. They say they were an integrator and now are a tech director. Why they have the idea that an integrator/retailer should give them their COGS I have no idea. That's an outlier. I wouldn't deal with them as far as I can throw them.

You might have to lay with a few dogs to get the beauty queen.

Here is the issue, there are more than likely numerous HoW that have tech staff that respect their vendor relationships, treat them well and make strategic plans based on goals instead of setting a budget then backing into it.

The problem is those folks more than likely have entrenched relationships with quality integrators.  With all due respect you are young and relatively inexperienced.  What compelling value do you bring to the table?

You have to bring on a few young and inexperienced customers and nurse them along hoping the seeds you plant help them grow.

WRT to tuning and other "shit shows" we see them all the time.  My name is not attached to it so why would I care? 

I apply a filter:

1 - Does it need to be said
2 - Does it need to be said now
3 - Does it need to be said by me

 Once I pass those filter my "first thought wrong" and general emotional state is where it needs to be.

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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2018, 12:45:17 pm »

Not audio experience-but as an electrical contractor I have had the same thing happen.  A homeowner wanted a panel added, I made a suggestion that was a huge cost savings (mainly in labor)-never got the job, but a few months later drove by the house and saw that he did exactly what I planned.  It can be frustrating-but it's not just churches-its people.

I am in a unique situation now-I transistioned to maintenance manager at a facility I did a lot of work for as a contractor.  I now hire electrical contactors-and because I was (and still am technically) an electrical contractor I know what their material costs are.  I have, and make it a point, to never question their markup-I have a responsibility to my employer to be a good steward of his money, but putting a contractor out of business serves no useful purpose.  Competitive bids sure-but also a design fee is offered if I expect a contractor to design, then bid.  The customer that wants to nickel and dime is not worth pursuing, IMO. (And biblically is on pretty soft ground as well!!)

One of the hardest lessons I had to learn when I started contracting was that there were certain customers I did not want.  I wanted everyone to want my services and felt bad when they didn't want to hire me.  Then I was told by another contractor "There is always someone that can do a job better than you, or for less money than you, or faster than you-you just have to be you and find the customers whose needs and wants match the product that you can deliver."  Maybe I can do it better-but this guy wants cheaper (often I wouoldn't do it cheaper because of safety).  Maybe they need it today, and don't care about price-but I have other commitments.  In your case, you have skills, but maybe they are not interested in paying for those skills.  Whatever the case may be.  As a sole propietor, it can be hard to separate personal approval from business-but you have to learn to mentally do so.
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Benjamin Gingerich

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2018, 10:06:04 pm »

You know...I could throw some scripture on them (literally) :P

This is gold, great idea for good clean salesmanship. Thanks!

---

So this just happened. Is this a real thing?

I cross posted this topic to the CSMT Professionals group (where integrators lurk) apparently one of the members asks for the cost of the equipment (not the price=their quote), but the integrators cost of parts. They say they want to know the markup and wouldn't buy from a company without knowing the cost and price and markup.

I was/am incredulous and left a rather pointed reply.
Why would anyone want/need that info?
What retailer would give their customer that info?
/confused  ??? ???

Person:
Me:
Person:
Other person:
Person:
Me:
Person:

Nathan
This is a new trend because of the MIX-U podcast guys did a show on "how to save your church money" that said you should alway's know what the dealer is paying for the items and they said they shouldn't pay over 10% for the equipment, and all 3 guys agreed.
The problem with this is those guys are doing multiple $500k+ projects every year, which at that point you have some negotiating power with a dealer. In the same podcast, they also said a dealer should fly them to Info-Comm or NAMM to get hands-on equipment without clearly specifying that can't be done for a 20k job.
We have done 3 bids since that podcast came out that requested we give them our price, to which we kindly say no our contract's do not allow us to do that. Two of them were ok with that answer and we supplied bids, one said not to give them a bid.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 10:08:58 pm by Benjamin Gingerich »
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2018, 12:26:36 pm »

Nathan
This is a new trend because of the MIX-U podcast guys did a show on "how to save your church money" that said you should alway's know what the dealer is paying for the items and they said they shouldn't pay over 10% for the equipment, and all 3 guys agreed.
The problem with this is those guys are doing multiple $500k+ projects every year, which at that point you have some negotiating power with a dealer. In the same podcast, they also said a dealer should fly them to Info-Comm or NAMM to get hands-on equipment without clearly specifying that can't be done for a 20k job.
We have done 3 bids since that podcast came out that requested we give them our price, to which we kindly say no our contract's do not allow us to do that. Two of them were ok with that answer and we supplied bids, one said not to give them a bid.


After having attended MxU and wasn't impressed, this makes me sad.

I think I know the podcast/breakout from FILO that you are talking about. I need to listen to it. Thanks for the reference, I definitely didn't put two and two together.

To be fair to the client, I'm fine with them asking hard questions. I think it comes from an era of integrators 'screwing' over churches and those good-hearted MxU people are trying to equip the churches with the tools needed to get better deals and accomplish more within their budget. I'm fine with all that. I encourage the Dave Ramsey method.
What I'm not okay with is such a bad attitude about it when we give every inch we can but can't give the last inch they want and they feel entitled to this 'new way of doing business'. (I hope that's communicating what I'm trying to say).
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2018, 10:39:10 pm »

Simply put Nathan, whether intentional or more likely just not thoughtful, this church has no respect for your time.

I showed up last week to fix their improv lighting system. The emotions still welled up, grr annoyed I'm not over this yet. The pastor is a friend I might just talk to him. But then again he might have a big gig for me to run so there's that. Anyways, that's not why I'm reviving/updating this thread.

I have had this happen a lot over the years. A church ask for a bunch of quotes and then ends up buying online and DIY’ing. They could at least offer a design fee IMO. But, no hard feelings. I just started charging a consultation fee to come out and do a real basic design and narrative suggestion. Then I accompany that consultation report with a quote. Then, if they choose to shop it fine, if they choose to DIY, whatever, etc. I don’t charge a ton, but a couple hundred bucks. Makes it worth my time and also weeds out the not serious folks and people who don’t value your time.
Now if it’s just a simple “you need 6 pars across the front” I may not charge, but I have found we waste a LOT less time and close a lot more sales since we took the posture that our time is valuable and our price is professional. If you want the fly by night guy go for it, they’ll call me in 5 years when nothing works right and they are fed up anyway.

Okay, so I tried your suggestion. I definitely need to learn how to better impose it. I've spent probably 20hrs all combined on a $200 check. My fault too, not theirs.

Church asked for me to look at the (broken) sound system, soundboard (also kinda broken), etc. Sure no prob. Came in chatted for an hour or two. No prob sent some basic numbers, quick mockup in Direct, etc. I did some diagnostics on their speaker that was giving them troubles. Charged for that, happy there.

They wanted to move forward with quotes for a new sound system. Okay design fee, I'll do a basic design and then bid on my own design. And you can use it for an RFP.

20hrs, multiple EASE plots, Direct, Display, etc. later and I'm still writing the generic sound design document that will look fantastic and get me the gig I'm sure. Not mad, just trying to get better...

Anyways,
What does "real basic design" look like to you?
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2018, 06:22:43 pm »

But, but "why do you want to make a profit??!?"

Lemme just tell you that for SOME REASON my mortgage company wants, ya know, REAL MONEY every month. They're not happy with "Oh, well, I cut this group a great deal." They want fives and tens of dollars. Speaking of which, I should probably mail that check now. Ack!

And what exactly does the word 'profit' mean?

To a business, there really is no such thing as profit. Every penny that comes in goes to 1) raw materials, 2) overhead, 3) labor, 4) business development, or 5) charitable causes. Some businesses might bank some cash reserves, but even that eventually goes to business development if nothing else.

The money that goes out in labor not only includes the employees, but what the owner takes home. And whatever the owner takes home is the value of the owner's time.

To an individual, there is no such thing as profit. Every penny goes to supporting lifestyle, personal development, is invested for future lifestyle and personal development, is passed on to another generation, or goes to charitable causes.

Oh, I suppose if you put a bunch of cash under your mattress with the intention that neither yourself nor anyone else will ever be able to use it, you could call that profit.

Profit? That's not the money that I charge above my costs, that's the money that you charge above your costs.
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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2018, 11:29:22 pm »

And what exactly does the word 'profit' mean?

To a business, there really is no such thing as profit. Every penny that comes in goes to 1) raw materials, 2) overhead, 3) labor, 4) business development, or 5) charitable causes. Some businesses might bank some cash reserves, but even that eventually goes to business development if nothing else.

The money that goes out in labor not only includes the employees, but what the owner takes home. And whatever the owner takes home is the value of the owner's time.

To an individual, there is no such thing as profit. Every penny goes to supporting lifestyle, personal development, is invested for future lifestyle and personal development, is passed on to another generation, or goes to charitable causes.

Oh, I suppose if you put a bunch of cash under your mattress with the intention that neither yourself nor anyone else will ever be able to use it, you could call that profit.

Profit? That's not the money that I charge above my costs, that's the money that you charge above your costs.

That's not true, profit is distributed or retained based on corporate structure.  In fact if you can't show a profit after a period of time the IRS considers you a hobby.

A profit and loss statement is a key financial report.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2018, 01:05:21 pm »



Anyways,
What does "real basic design" look like to you?

A question I wrestle with in my day job from the other side now.  I spent several years as an electrical contractor bidding jobs (though a relatively few were competitive bids)-but now I am requesting bids and once over a certain threshold the owners want 3 bids so I am constantly tring to do this and often for projects that are too small to justify hiring an archetect or engineer.

Usually, I am doing equipment based bids-"I want this specific item installed in this location".  Performance based is going to be a lot harder-and, face it, it is likely that no one on the deciding committee will understand what an EASE plot tells them-your competitor could draw something in Paint and they'll not be the wiser. 

I guess I would lean towards a one line drawing of the system showing the basic interconnections of the gear to be installed, specifying major equipment by make/model. Probably specifying speaker location-especially if that significantly affects cost. Also, any special code considerations taken into account.  Really only leaves basic things and labor and markup for competition-but barring knowledgable people on the deciding committee, there is no other way to get a truly competitive bid.
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Steve Swaffer

David Allred

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2018, 02:24:34 pm »

1 - Charge a consultation / design fee that is deducted from the total if they hire you.
2 - If they ask your margin, tell them to ask the online retail what their margin is.
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2018, 09:54:35 pm »


Anyways,
What does "real basic design" look like to you?

Nathan, i will do something like a $200 consult fee, meet with the church rep and discuss needs, goals, problems, etc. Then I’ll check out existing gear and take real basic measurements and pics. I try to limit my trip to an hour because I’m a talker and I’ll be there for hours if I don’t have a scheduled out.
Then I go back and basically write up a quote for the things we talked about and the gear and installation. Usually an hour or less.
  My quotes have some narrative explanations but at $200 I’m not drawing anything or getting super detailed. I will share direct files or similar at the next phase if they seem interested for real but not typically out of the gate unless I’m feeling really confident. I also tend to do mostly 500-1000 seat rooms, so I don’t need to model too much to know what’s going to work. (We’ll just say there are a LOT of rooms in North Central Florida with nice sounding SH69 Rigs)




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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Integrators selling your product?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2018, 09:58:37 pm »

Nathan
This is a new trend because of the MIX-U podcast guys did a show on "how to save your church money" that said you should alway's know what the dealer is paying for the items and they said they shouldn't pay over 10% for the equipment, and all 3 guys agreed.
The problem with this is those guys are doing multiple $500k+ projects every year, which at that point you have some negotiating power with a dealer. In the same podcast, they also said a dealer should fly them to Info-Comm or NAMM to get hands-on equipment without clearly specifying that can't be done for a 20k job.
We have done 3 bids since that podcast came out that requested we give them our price, to which we kindly say no our contract's do not allow us to do that. Two of them were ok with that answer and we supplied bids, one said not to give them a bid.

Holy hell, I listened to that podcast and about caused an accident driving I screamed so loud when they said that. He was literally saying he was working on a multimillion dollar project and wanted to give a term contract type of deal to the vendor. I think many of us would do cost +10% of promised millions. It was so out of context for their actual crowd and inappropriate for 99% of situations. That bummed me out because I think in general they have a lot of good things to say. Now we will have every 300 seat church with a $10k project budget wanting us to only make 10% and show them our books


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