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[josh allman]

Bought Smaart DI and also a dLive so digging back into this.

Using one TD1 per side lying horizontally (needed the horizontal coverage, specs say its a 60x40 box) with a tilt plate. Definitely better coverage in the center now.

I have two TH115s on each side under the TD1. Right now I have 80hz crossover 24db/BW. I think I ended up at 6.3ms delay on the tops to phase align best I could b/t 80-120hz outside (I didn't have a chance to phase align in the venue yet). Processing is in the amps, (i-tech 6k/8k)

But what I saw in the very short time I had yesterday confirmed what I was hearing, a substantial notch from 125-250.

So, I'm curious, how is best to approach this? raise my crossover? and lower my sub output?

Room is about 100x100, main audience area is 50wx80d. We stack the speakers on the stage about 40ft apart (each side of stage)

I have limited time to make changes so just looking for any way to get a head start on it. Will be doing my research on Smaart this week to know it better.

[David Sturzenbecher]

Bought Smaart DI and also a dLive so digging back into this.

Using one TD1 per side lying horizontally (needed the horizontal coverage, specs say its a 60x40 box) with a tilt plate. Definitely better coverage in the center now.

I have two TH115s on each side under the TD1. Right now I have 80hz crossover 24db/BW. I think I ended up at 6.3ms delay on the tops to phase align best I could b/t 80-120hz outside (I didn't have a chance to phase align in the venue yet). Processing is in the amps, (i-tech 6k/8k)

But what I saw in the very short time I had yesterday confirmed what I was hearing, a substantial notch from 125-250.

So, I'm curious, how is best to approach this? raise my crossover? and lower my sub output?

Room is about 100x100, main audience area is 50wx80d. We stack the speakers on the stage about 40ft apart (each side of stage)

I have limited time to make changes so just looking for any way to get a head start on it. Will be doing my research on Smaart this week to know it better.

Josh,
Posting screenshots would be best.  Was the notch there when you measured the individual speakers?  If you EQ'ed them flat prior to combining, and the notch shows up only when they are both turned on, your alignment seems off.  This could also be ground bounce too, which would be present when just viewing the individual components.

[josh allman]

Will do.

Floor is sloped, carpet. Stage/speakers are about 40” up.

Should I first try to align the side in place, and go from there? Get the mic on the floor or at ear height? I would assume so long as I’m far enough back for a full wavelength, distance isn’t too important? mix position is about 52ft back (and I think Smaart confirmed that for me)

Would you EQ in the amp or do it on the console?

Sorry for all the questions. But seems there are many thoughts on how best to do this.

Josh,
Posting screenshots would be best.  Was the notch there when you measured the individual speakers?  If you EQ'ed them flat prior to combining, and the notch shows up only when they are both turned on, your alignment seems off.  This could also be ground bounce too, which would be present when just viewing the individual components.

[Tim McCulloch]

Will do.

Floor is sloped, carpet. Stage/speakers are about 40” up.

Should I first try to align the side in place, and go from there? Get the mic on the floor or at ear height? I would assume so long as I’m far enough back for a full wavelength, distance isn’t too important? mix position is about 52ft back (and I think Smaart confirmed that for me)

Would you EQ in the amp or do it on the console?

Sorry for all the questions. But seems there are many thoughts on how best to do this.

What are you aligning to what?  Also it sounds like you have some other issue at play - miswired cable, significant reflection problem, etc.

You could track this down in several ways and most require in situ measurements and the time needed to make and interpret them.  Is this a portable church situation?

[josh allman]

What are you aligning to what?  Also it sounds like you have some other issue at play - miswired cable, significant reflection problem, etc.

You could track this down in several ways and most require in situ measurements and the time needed to make and interpret them.  Is this a portable church situation?

You got it.

Should I open up the box panels of the subs and check the wiring? I thought to do that last week when I had them here but didn't. Everything is NL4 to a patch panel so we have one cable to each side of stage. I know from the patch to the amps are right. But inside the subs...who knows.

Because the tapped horn has the inherent delay, I delayed the mains to it. I've done the SPL meter method too, and ended up in the same ball park (about 6 ms). Ivan might have suggested something similar at one point.

Read through some more on here, Timo had some good stuff...Since i might get 15 min before and after, I want to have a good plan for next week. Bringing everything here to work on at home is an option.

But seems I should EQ the subs and mains separately first, and then look at phase alignment? I didn't take any screenshots of smaart yesterday, so here is one playing around in my garage with the speakers facing out the door, just to start learning how to use the software. I'm wondering, even though there is overlap on 80hz and the octave up/down, if I'm interpreting this right, there is major phase deviation above that, even though the sub is 12db lower at that point, is that still significant enough to cause noticeable cancellation?

I also have noticed a lot of buildup (before this new system config) between 80-100hz. So I learned that its ok to have a gap in my electrical crossover because the acoustical crossover won't always match up. Never been happy with my subs, at least now I think I will be able to learn and solve the problem on my own.

I'm used to just dealing with reflections and positioning in a studio environment, so SR tuning is a new (fun) world.

When you see the traces in this screenshot, the sub is steeper. Is this a situation where I'll need an all pass? (a little knowledge can be dangerous lol)

BTW, I am definitely interested in a Smaart course (whether online or in person, if one comes close enough)

[Ivan Beaver]

The first thing I would do would be to move the mic closer to the TD1.

You may be getting a floor bounce cancellation at that mic position.

The TD1 is a sealed alignment, so it does not go very low, but should do 100Hz easily.

[josh allman]

The first thing I would do would be to move the mic closer to the TD1.

You may be getting a floor bounce cancellation at that mic position.

The TD1 is a sealed alignment, so it does not go very low, but should do 100Hz easily.

That makes a lot of sense based on what I hear from it. I've wondered how well they hold up between 80-100hz and thus my curiosity of how best to hand off to the subs.

[Roland Clarke]

The frequency range you are talking about having problems with should really only be a problem with the TD1, the sub (if properly filtered) shouldn’t be having the effect you are describing unless horribly misaligned.  Ivan is probably the best expert in here on these type of issues and he and others are all talking about room and measurement issues.  If you take the measurement closer to the td1 you can probably, greatly reduce the influence of the room on your measurement.  You could consider flying the tops, this might well improve your results (or not)!

[josh allman]

I would love to fly them for more even coverage but it’s a mobile setup, in and out of an auditorium.

The frequency range you are talking about having problems with should really only be a problem with the TD1, the sub (if properly filtered) shouldn’t be having the effect you are describing unless horribly misaligned.  Ivan is probably the best expert in here on these type of issues and he and others are all talking about room and measurement issues.  If you take the measurement closer to the td1 you can probably, greatly reduce the influence of the room on your measurement.  You could consider flying the tops, this might well improve your results (or not)!

[Mike Pyle]

If the stacks are at the stage lip you could be seeing boundary cancellation from the floor in front of the stage.

https://peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/boundarycancellation.cfm

[Weogo Reed]

Hi Josh,

For my td-1s I built tilting yokes that hold the boxes in 'landscape' orientation and go up on sturdy stands.
Very much worth the effort.
This would also allow you to use the TH115s as a single stack, or possibly a cardioid setup.

Good health,  Weogo

I would love to fly them for more even coverage but it’s a mobile setup, in and out of an auditorium.

[josh allman]

My dad has a machine shop so I made an adjustable stand for them on top of the subs. But with some changes I could put a pole adapter on there.

I have to ask, how do you get a 130lb speaker in the air on pole stand and who makes a stand for that purpose?

Hi Josh,

For my td-1s I built tilting yokes that hold the boxes in 'landscape' orientation and go up on sturdy stands.
Very much worth the effort.
This would also allow you to use the TH115s as a single stack, or possibly a cardioid setup.

Good health,  Weogo

[josh allman]

My dad has a machine shop so I made an adjustable stand for them on top of the subs. But with some changes I could put a pole adapter on there.

I have to ask, how do you get a 130lb speaker in the air on pole stand and who makes a stand for that purpose?

It looks like the JBL Gas Tripod will hold 150lbs. The K&M crank says 110lbs...if I can pull it off aesthetically, just maybe.

So it gets my speaker close to 7ft in the air. Take the additional 39" from the stage, I have my speaker about 10ft off the ground. And about 70ft deep and 50ft section of seating to cover....again, aesthetics potentially in the way, I could center cluster the subs (they will be stage height almost exact). Worse case, they go on the floor in front of the mains instead of the stage.

Lots of options...I will try to sketch this up.

[Rick Powell]

Something like a Global ST-132 would be more sturdy a stand (220 lb. rating), but at 50 lbs not as easy to lug around as the lightweights. Putting a speaker that heavy on a stand underrated or barely rated for its weight might work, but I’d rather have a safety margin.

[josh allman]

Something like a Global ST-132 would be more sturdy a stand (220 lb. rating), but at 50 lbs not as easy to lug around as the lightweights. Putting a speaker that heavy on a stand underrated or barely rated for its weight might work, but I’d rather have a safety margin.

Those go a lot higher too. Didn't come across those in my searches last night, thanks

[Dave Garoutte]

When putting a heavy speaker on a pole in a sub, the rating of the sub pole socket should be considered also.
I have seen some that aren't very well attached.
If you consider the weight and length of pole, you have a serious amount of bending potential at the sub socket.

[josh allman]

When putting a heavy speaker on a pole in a sub, the rating of the sub pole socket should be considered also.
I have seen some that aren't very well attached.
If you consider the weight and length of pole, you have a serious amount of bending potential at the sub socket.

I wouldn't be using sub poles...at least mine don't have sockets.

[Weogo Reed]

Hi Josh,

"I have to ask, how do you get a 130lb speaker in the air on pole stand and who makes a stand for that purpose?"

My td-1s are install boxes weighing about 110# with the tilting brackets.
Two sturdy guys can get these up on stands shy of 6'.
Safer with three.

Applied Engineering AE11 stands are rated for 200# and work ok indoors on solid floors.
ST132s are nicer.
There are some budget, import lighting stands that claim 150~175 weight ratings and have pretty wide leg spreads.
Sandbags can bring peace of mind.

Good health,  Weogo

[josh allman]

I’m looking at the dura truss stands...

How is the yoke mounted to your boxes? Mine are install too.


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