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Author Topic: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?  (Read 4717 times)

jason misterka

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Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2018, 09:39:45 am »



Dave,

I would not find hanging a single sub in your application to be worth the effort or loss of trim.  We have the inventory to hang 6/side subs and it absolutely makes a big difference in coverage when you can do it right. Typically directly behind the main array on its own rigging.  And in combination with floor subs as well.

But if hanging on the same point as the mains, the loss of trim, and for us, the decrease in the number of line array boxes we can use with the subs makes the trade off not worth it.

In your case if you can put up three or four subs per side on separate lifts behind the array, great. If not, it isn't worth the hassle.

Jason

My application would be a single HDL-18AS flown at the top of the array, per side,  in an attempt to deliver more low end to the top part of the amphitheater, with my full compliment of 8 SUB 8006 dual 18" subs deployed at ground level across the front of the stage. The biggest drawback I see is this would effectively lower the trim height of my top array box by the height of the sub. As it is now, my lifts are 21 ft max. The actual height of the top box is about 19.5 ft, which for this particular amphitheater works perfectly for delivering sound to the street level, where there is typically a large crowd gathered when the amphitheater itself is full.

Even being an RCF dealer, my cost on the HDL-18AS is still significant. I am not convinced that the ROI on this investment is worth it.
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Steven Eudaly

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Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2018, 11:28:12 am »


Dave,

I would not find hanging a single sub in your application to be worth the effort or loss of trim.  We have the inventory to hang 6/side subs and it absolutely makes a big difference in coverage when you can do it right. Typically directly behind the main array on its own rigging.  And in combination with floor subs as well.

But if hanging on the same point as the mains, the loss of trim, and for us, the decrease in the number of line array boxes we can use with the subs makes the trade off not worth it.

In your case if you can put up three or four subs per side on separate lifts behind the array, great. If not, it isn't worth the hassle.

Jason

Agreed with what Jason said.

We have added a couple of subs to the top of the main hang on occasion, but it was in arena situations where we didn't have to sacrifice trim height. I once tried it in a similar situation where we had limited trim height and deemed it counter productive at best.

Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2018, 05:59:35 am »

Agreed as well. For you application adding 1 sub to the array is not going to give you much benefit.

I posted the additional information because this is a forum and people will hopefully search before posting and then find the information.
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Dave Batistig

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Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2018, 05:21:23 pm »

Agreed with what Jason said.

We have added a couple of subs to the top of the main hang on occasion, but it was in arena situations where we didn't have to sacrifice trim height. I once tried it in a similar situation where we had limited trim height and deemed it counter productive at best.

I added the flown sub to my Ease Focus model I already had for this venue and while on paper in indicates there would be somewhat of a boost in low end coverage in the upper part of the venue, the drawbacks greatly outweigh any potential small benefit. Not going to be making this investment!

I really appreciate all the helpful feedback to this post!
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2018, 03:50:16 am »

Don't let some people on the internet put you off of trying something that might be a learning experience either.

If the prediction says it will be an improvement and you can do it without needing to shade the bottom of your array too much(as you know amplitude shading can cause weird phase anomalies if done aggressively) then I say go for it. If you need extra boxes to do that maybe rent as a 1 time thing to test it and if you like it then make the investment.

I didn't think adding 1 sub to the array would actually make a difference though.
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2018, 06:52:02 am »

Another option if your PA is up to the task, is running the PA full-range and put the subs on an aux.

Had a system like that last night, it was a really sweet-sounding Meyer Mica system outdoors with a good systech.

Sounded really good and easy to mix on.
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Xandy Whitesel

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Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2018, 04:41:44 pm »

I added the flown sub to my Ease Focus model I already had for this venue and while on paper in indicates there would be somewhat of a boost in low end coverage in the upper part of the venue, the drawbacks greatly outweigh any potential small benefit. Not going to be making this investment!

I really appreciate all the helpful feedback to this post!


Dave, I think you're making the correct choice.  I recently dialed in a small theater with a d&b q install with 6 Q1/side and 1 Q-sub/side at the top (a q-sub is a single 18").  Also, 1 B2 (band pass double 18) per side on the floor under the stage.   There is a small balcony in this venue.  The Q-subs did nothing perceptible for the balcony.  What they did do was was blur the power alley from the B2's on the floor.  Without the q-subs, the power alley was more prominent, and the low end was clearer.   With the Q-subs on, the power alley was less prominent and the low end was blurrier in general.  Neither was clearly superior and I wouldn't fault an engineer from wanting it either way.  But if your objective is a longer "throw" for sub, I don't think augmenting ground subs with a single 18 box at the top of the array will get you there.

I didn't catch your configuration for your ground stacked subs, but another thing to think about is: the shallower your sub stack is vertically, the higher it will cover vertically.  I've measured this in large theater's double balconies before and it is perceivable.  A single high sub stack (i.e. 24" high box) covers the balconies better than double high (i.e. 48" high).  Of course you are covering the ceiling better too.  If you stack 3 high, the top sub is pretty much just for the floor. 

-xandy
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Greg_Cameron

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Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2018, 05:48:58 pm »

I always thought this was a good take on flown subs, especially dealing with venues that have seating above ground level:


https://www.ratsound.com/cblog/archives/334-Figuring-and-Flying.html
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2018, 06:34:22 pm »

I always thought this was a good take on flown subs, especially dealing with venues that have seating above ground level:


https://www.ratsound.com/cblog/archives/334-Figuring-and-Flying.html

For sure.   His blogs are an awesome sharing IMO.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Flown subs...pros/cons? worth the extra effort?
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2018, 06:34:22 pm »


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