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Author Topic: Upgrade danley sm80  (Read 6368 times)

Rick Powell

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Re: Upgrade danley sm80
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2018, 10:08:28 am »

It is a weird niche but has been filled for a long time by the SRX835 and its predecessors, KF650 and boxes like the SLS920 and SLS960 (now discontinued). The TTL6 and its little brothers are an improvement on the KF650 concept in that one per side is not too narrow, allowing to cover more events/split up a rig, and these boxes are taller so guys not willing to routinely endure the liability of flying speakers overhead can have a usable product ground stacking.

These don't scale up to 5x/side but then you are into the next level of production with lifts, stages, etc. for any event handled.

The Q for most lounge types is - would you rather by 4 TTL6 + 4 IG4T/NXL-24A plus stage wedges as a basic multiple gig system or would you rather try to buy QSC KLA or JBL VRX or JBL STX835? I would contend that these vertical kits beat the application flexibility of all of those products, without the liability/risk/setup time of vertical lifts or the 60* pattern inflexibility of using something like STX835 1/side. Note the TTL6-A even has a pole mount for crazy folks who think it goes on a pole. Wonder if RCF sells a pole rated for that box...

Also the manufacturer's DSP engineering today means comparisons to component stacking systems is not really valid, IMHO.

These "quasi-line sources" are very creative solutions to the market for an easily deployable system that will handle events from a small bar gig to a small festival or concert setting. The other alternative is a point source that will go wide and loud enough, light enough to mount on a pole, and enough SPL to handle the same range of applications. As demonstrated in the above discussions, the SM80, T24, TT25 CXA and PM 60/90 accomplish the same thing in a different way, with varying degrees of success in hitting similar volume/pattern targets. It is great to have these choices that weren't available 10 years ago.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 10:10:37 am by Rick Powell »
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Steven Eudaly

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Re: Upgrade danley sm80
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2018, 11:05:31 am »

These don't scale up to 5x/side but then you are into the next level of production with lifts, stages, etc. for any event handled.

The Q for most lounge types is - would you rather by 4 TTL6 + 4 IG4T/NXL-24A plus stage wedges as a basic multiple gig system or would you rather try to buy QSC KLA or JBL VRX or JBL STX835? I would contend that these vertical kits beat the application flexibility of all of those products, without the liability/risk/setup time of vertical lifts or the 60* pattern inflexibility of using something like STX835 1/side. Note the TTL6-A even has a pole mount for crazy folks who think it goes on a pole. Wonder if RCF sells a pole rated for that box...

Also the manufacturer's DSP engineering today means comparisons to component stacking systems is not really valid, IMHO.

But here we are, with people using lifts to fly two of these per side.

I'm not an owner nor a big fan of VRX/KLA/etc but IMO they're a much more usable product for this niche as they scale better and take up less space. You can pole mount one or two, you can fly several boxes, etc. If that's what you're going for.

Also you could take the same fancy DSP work and apply it to old skool stacked component systems and likely end up with similar sonic results, but that still doesn't make it the best solution.

Caleb Dueck

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Re: Upgrade danley sm80
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2018, 11:24:13 am »



I'm not an owner nor a big fan of VRX/KLA/etc but IMO they're a much more usable product for this niche as they scale better and take up less space. You can pole mount one or two, you can fly several boxes, etc.

My experience is opposite.  During a KLA demo, I grabbed a TT25A, and for the same price (2 boxes KLA on a tripod) - better sound, similar coverage, better SPL.

Personally I would rather have either high output SOS (SM80, T24N, PM60, etc) or large point source (SH96HO, SH64, J3, etc) with under-hung fill.



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Steven Eudaly

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Re: Upgrade danley sm80
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2018, 11:26:37 am »

My experience is opposite.  During a KLA demo, I grabbed a TT25A, and for the same price (2 boxes KLA on a tripod) - better sound, similar coverage, better SPL.

Personally I would rather have either high output SOS (SM80, T24N, PM60, etc) or large point source (SH96HO, SH64, J3, etc) with under-hung fill.

Well, that wasn't really my argument. I also would rather have a high output SOS than KLA/VRX, but the TTL6 is not that. 

Jeffrey Knorr - CobraSound.com

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Re: Upgrade danley sm80
« Reply #104 on: July 13, 2018, 12:40:47 pm »

Well, that wasn't really my argument. I also would rather have a high output SOS than KLA/VRX, but the TTL6 is not that.

The TTL-6A would definitely be a good option to use instead of a KLA or VRX array.  It would most likely have similar/better max SPL, smoother dispersion throughout the listening area, higher-fidelity due to 3-way design, and better pattern control.  The TTL-6A would stomp most SOS rigs--this is for people taking the next step up.

Jeff
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Jeremy Young

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Re: Upgrade danley sm80
« Reply #105 on: July 13, 2018, 03:01:55 pm »

What I like about the TTL6-As is that their rigging is integral to the cabinet so assembling the array on site isn't complicated, whereas (correct me if I'm wrong) the SH46s would be a bit more time consuming to bolt together and fly.  I also like that you can use only 1 TTL per side for smaller events, even on a pole mount if desired and safe to do so. 



Hey Jeff, to play the devil's advocate; from what I've read from SH46 users, the typical approach is to leave them bolted together and transport the pair on a dolly.  Roll the pair under the lift, attach your hoist to the array kit and start lifting. 

The pair of SH46 cabinets would be a shorter hang than two of the TTL-6-A (by about 6') which may improve sight lines in some applications if the trim height is high enough (but the RCF boxes being narrower would have the upper hand for ground-stack applications), and would take less time to lift than the process I watched on the RCF site for hanging one under one TTL-6-A.  Overall weight would be similar, if not slightly less for the pair of SH46's due to less cabling and the bumper "looking" heavier than the FS-flyware kit (I haven't compared those specs) but I doubt it would be enough to change what lift you needed to use.  That of course assumes your van can transport a pair of 250lb dollies and someone can get them under the lift. 

The other option is a single SH96HO per side since it has tilt-back wheels (might be easier to maneuver on grass than a 4-wheel dolly of similar weight,and it's already one cabinet) but I agree that the flying hardware on the RCF is where it really takes the lead over the current Danley offerings.

An argument to the length of two of the TTL-6 A would be that it might "look" like a bigger rig to some clients (very line-array looking to those who don't know the difference).  Some might think that's a good thing, others a bad thing.  Depends who you cater to and what separates your clients from their money the easiest.

As for safety from built-in limiters and processing on the RCF boxes, just buy the Danley DNA amps and load the proper preset and you're protected (and your amp can be somewhere out of the sun).  That's just my take on it anyway.  I ALWAYS prefer separate amps for the sake of redundancy/cabling but an amp rack is one more thing to fit in the van on a small scale. (Edit: I nearly forgot that both the SH46 and SH96HO are available powered).

These options are all very intriguing to me but I personally wouldn't want to be putting a 116lb, nearly-4' tall loudspeaker on a tripod...nice height for a ground stack deployment though especially with the HF near the top of the cabinet.  This RCF option is definitely intriguing and it's great to hear of so much success with it already. 

It's an exciting time for small-to-mid-level operators.
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Jeffrey Knorr - CobraSound.com

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Re: Upgrade danley sm80
« Reply #106 on: July 13, 2018, 05:30:10 pm »


Hey Jeff, to play the devil's advocate; from what I've read from SH46 users, the typical approach is to leave them bolted together and transport the pair on a dolly.  Roll the pair under the lift, attach your hoist to the array kit and start lifting. 

The pair of SH46 cabinets would be a shorter hang than two of the TTL-6-A (by about 6') which may improve sight lines in some applications if the trim height is high enough (but the RCF boxes being narrower would have the upper hand for ground-stack applications), and would take less time to lift than the process I watched on the RCF site for hanging one under one TTL-6-A.  Overall weight would be similar, if not slightly less for the pair of SH46's due to less cabling and the bumper "looking" heavier than the FS-flyware kit (I haven't compared those specs) but I doubt it would be enough to change what lift you needed to use.  That of course assumes your van can transport a pair of 250lb dollies and someone can get them under the lift. 

The other option is a single SH96HO per side since it has tilt-back wheels (might be easier to maneuver on grass than a 4-wheel dolly of similar weight,and it's already one cabinet) but I agree that the flying hardware on the RCF is where it really takes the lead over the current Danley offerings.

An argument to the length of two of the TTL-6 A would be that it might "look" like a bigger rig to some clients (very line-array looking to those who don't know the difference).  Some might think that's a good thing, others a bad thing.  Depends who you cater to and what separates your clients from their money the easiest.

As for safety from built-in limiters and processing on the RCF boxes, just buy the Danley DNA amps and load the proper preset and you're protected (and your amp can be somewhere out of the sun).  That's just my take on it anyway.  I ALWAYS prefer separate amps for the sake of redundancy/cabling but an amp rack is one more thing to fit in the van on a small scale. (Edit: I nearly forgot that both the SH46 and SH96HO are available powered).

These options are all very intriguing to me but I personally wouldn't want to be putting a 116lb, nearly-4' tall loudspeaker on a tripod...nice height for a ground stack deployment though especially with the HF near the top of the cabinet.  This RCF option is definitely intriguing and it's great to hear of so much success with it already. 

It's an exciting time for small-to-mid-level operators.

Hi Jeremy,

You certainly make great points.  I've run the SH96HO's as well--it's definitely another contender in this class.  I would say that all of these rigs are probably above van level.  For our rig and my client's, we're using cargo trailers for transport.

For several iterations of our DSL rig the DNA amps and Sentinel protection circuits weren't available.  That's the preferred way to operate them now.

I fully agree--it's a great time to be alive and have so many good options! :)

Jeff
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Upgrade danley sm80
« Reply #107 on: July 13, 2018, 10:58:40 pm »

Hey Jeff, to play the devil's advocate...

Please do!  It's all great discussion and you make good points.  I have read that most SH46 users travel with the pairs bolted together.  While I wouldn't be opposed to doing that, it just makes for a rather awkward and heavy package that won't truck pack well.  Then again, if driving in a van, truck pack doesn't really matter...  I agree that pretty much everything mentioned is above a van rig in full deployment, but I like that I could easily dolly a pair of TTLs around to serve smaller jobs when the flown set of 4 isn't needed.  That was one of the big disappointments to me when hearing the SM80s - there's just no using them without subs.  Not that any large event wouldn't have them, but I like having a full range cabinet to call upon if the circumstance arises.   

The other option is a single SH96HO per side since it has tilt-back wheels (might be easier to maneuver on grass than a 4-wheel dolly of similar weight,and it's already one cabinet) but I agree that the flying hardware on the RCF is where it really takes the lead over the current Danley offerings.

The SH96HO is definitely another strong contender.  Having gotten to see/hear one and move a Danley box similar in size and weight to the SH96HO, it'd be right at the limit of what I'd consider doable by one person.  While an SH96HO would look and sound awesome ground stacked on some TH118XLs, the moving/stacking logistics is no where near as manageable as the TTL.  I also don't personally care for the look of a single flown SH96.  Given that most of my sound work is corporate in nature, looks matter too.  The streamlined rigging was what also interested me so much in the Danley Exodus series.  I was told last month that the series is being reworked and isn't dead, so maybe there's hope still that we'll see these boxes again. 

The way I see it is that at least in my case, I'm mostly a lights/pyro guy - I just happen to also have a loyal (and growing) client base that hires me for sound.  As such, I'd like to extend the upper end of what I can handle but at the same time not leave the smaller jobs behind.  I can always rent for the one or two big jobs a year when I need more rig than I can justify owning.  I'm just trying to find the "sweet spot" for a next-step-up rig that doesn't force me to completely restructure the logistics side of my business too.  The TTL option blurs the lines just enough to really interest me.  So many good options...and given that this purchase is at least 18 months out there's time for a few more products to enter the market too. 
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