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[Nathan Riddle]

Yes to uncharge, no on uncharge.

I've recently moved over to breaking out labor and transportation separately for several reasons.

1) Don't discount labor when giving a price break on rental gear
2) Charge for OT for long events
3) I cover a pretty large swath of land out here and I need to recoup mileage fairly. Especially if I do a drop off and have to drive it twice.
4) Give client a break on sales tax by not rolling labor and freight into a package.

This is essentially what Ray and Tim (among others) helped me come up with in my other "business minded questions" thread.

It has been advantageous for my growth & income

[Ray Aberle]

Yes to uncharge, no on uncharge.

I've recently moved over to breaking out labor and transportation separately for several reasons.

1) Don't discount labor when giving a price break on rental gear

This should always absolutely be a rule. A client of mine holds their event at a union house, so we have to use union labor hands. We learned this year that as a 501(c)(3) the client can get a $2/hour discount on the labor rates. It's a published policy that applies to everyone (not "do we like this client's cause or not?") so I'm cool with it. Beyond that... labor is a fixed cost regardless of the event.

2) Charge for OT for long events

Absolutely. I had this discussion just the other day vis-a-vis OT, not getting extra stage hands, etc. Boils down to "if I work a super long day to avoid bringing extra labor on the show, I'm putting money in my client's pocket at the expense of my physical condition."

3) I cover a pretty large swath of land out here and I need to recoup mileage fairly. Especially if I do a drop off and have to drive it twice.

Absolutely. I try to stick with IRS rates, but if it's a larger truck (wherein I have the truck rental expense PLUS mileage charged by the truck company PLUS fuel) then I go higher, up to a buck a mile.

4) Give client a break on sales tax by not rolling labor and freight into a package.

... For those following along at home, always make sure if you make a decision like this, you're still doing things correctly under the auspices of your state's Sales Tax regulations. Pretty much any state you can call their department of revenue/taxation and they'll help you figure out if you're doing things correctly.

-Ray

[Tim Hite]

Yeah I was talking to the Franchise Tax folks a bunch earlier this year. When I picked up Lectrosonics I started getting some location sound clients who get a big film and broadcast tax credit. The clients knew they got a credit but didn't know what it was, and I called two other location sound speciality shops who knew about the tax break but not what it was exactly. Even the LA film commission couldn't tell me what it was.

A call to the tax board and they got me all sorted with the correct forms for clients takin the credit and the appropriate rate structure. Really made life easy. Had to call back later to figure out how to handle filing my state return, as well.

Also had a nice chat about what they're doing about out of state vendors who keep selling into our state without paying sales tax like they're supposed to.

... For those following along at home, always make sure if you make a decision like this, you're still doing things correctly under the auspices of your state's Sales Tax regulations. Pretty much any state you can call their department of revenue/taxation and they'll help you figure out if you're doing things correctly.

-Ray

[Nathan Riddle]

Well, I sent my number to the promoter. We shall see!

Well. I'm too expensive.

I figured as much, but I couldn't figure out how to charge the 'correct' price for the time/work/equipment and come in small enough for them to make money at their fundraiser. The other company is doing it for less than half of my quote (which is 5k). I don't see how they can even pay for labor at that price, but what do I know.

But the relationship is established and we can work together in other areas and they sent me other potential promoters so I'll keep marching on.

Still, it would have been fun to show up with a SH46 rig and blow the K12 wall out of the water 

[Tim Hite]

It's easy to pay for labor if you just pay your guys $10/hour and don't carry any workers comp or liability insurance. Also, showing up with half the equipment needed for the show helps keep costs down.

I just got undercut on a $5k gig next May, where I was nearly giving away the rental and charging full pop for labor. I'm sure a combination of the things above allowed some mobile DJ to beat me out on price.

Doesn't matter because by the time the event owner figures it out the deed will be done.

I think you have to ask yourself whether or not you want clients who are only motivated by price and not quality of service or any other factors. . .

it's been my experience that the clients who demand the lowest price are usually the most easily displeased.

Well. I'm too expensive.

I figured as much, but I couldn't figure out how to charge the 'correct' price for the time/work/equipment and come in small enough for them to make money at their fundraiser. The other company is doing it for less than half of my quote (which is 5k). I don't see how they can even pay for labor at that price, but what do I know.

But the relationship is established and we can work together in other areas and they sent me other potential promoters so I'll keep marching on.

Still, it would have been fun to show up with a SH46 rig and blow the K12 wall out of the water 

[Chris Hindle]

it's been my experience that the clients who demand the lowest price are usually ALWAYS the most easily displeased with the results.

Here's the truth....
Chris.
"I want a Super Trooper, but I'll pay for a 5-cell Maglite"

[Tim Hite]

Thanks for correcting that.

I was out with a busy contractor buddy of mine and we stopped to look at a job on the way to lunch. The customer starts complaining about how the last contractor charged too much and did a lousy job and so he wasn't going to pay the bill.

My buddy started walking to the truck and tells me to come on, let's get lunch.

The customer asks why contractor is leaving and my friend says "Oh, I definitely charge too much and do horrible work, you probably won't like me at all, but this way you won't have to stiff me on the bill."

Here's the truth....
Chris.
"I want a Super Trooper, but I'll pay for a 5-cell Maglite"

[Scott Olewiler]

Well. I'm too expensive.

I figured as much, but I couldn't figure out how to charge the 'correct' price for the time/work/equipment and come in small enough for them to make money at their fundraiser. The other company is doing it for less than half of my quote (which is 5k). I don't see how they can even pay for labor at that price, but what do I know.

Nathan,

Just curious how many crew members and work days you're including for these shows? Given local day rates here I could hire 10 guys for $2500 for a single day's work.   I'm thinking a sole proprietor not paying for workman's comp could hire 3 freelance crew members and still pocket $1750 before expenses.   Not saying that's the right way to do it, just understanding how someone could do it for $2500.

[Nathan Riddle]

Nathan,

Just curious how many crew members and work days you're including for these shows? Given local day rates here I could hire 10 guys for $2500 for a single day's work.   I'm thinking a sole proprietor not paying for workman's comp could hire 3 freelance crew members and still pocket $1750 before expenses.   Not saying that's the right way to do it, just understanding how someone could do it for $2500.

9a-5p   8   Supervisor (Day Rate, 10 HRS)                   $38.00        $380.00
9a-5p   8   Crew Chief (Day Rate, 10 HRS)                   $34.00        $340.00
9a-5p   8   Stagehand - General @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS)       $28.00        $280.00
9a-5p   8   Stagehand - General @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS)       $28.00        $280.00

5p-9p   4   A1 Lead Audio Technician                       $40.00        $160.00
5p-9p   4   L1 Lead Lighting Technician                   $40.00        $160.00

9p-1a        4   Load out Labor @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS)           $28.00        $112.00
9p-1a        4   Load out Labor @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS)           $28.00        $112.00
9p-1a        4   Load out Labor @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS)           $28.00        $112.00
9p-1a        4   Load out Labor @ 28/hr (Minimum, 4 HRS)           $28.00        $112.00
Total: $2,440

That's pricing to the client.

I'd pay the normal $250/10hr day rate. But this event isn't 10hrs it's about 16hrs.

[Chris Grimshaw]

Another business question to make sure the thread remains "unending":
How to convince a potential client that you're worth more than their usual guy?

Context: I was approached recently by an organisation that has a 2-day festival with music that I'm very experienced with. Their previous guy did the gig for less than a third of what I've quoted. From the pictures, he brought a pair of EV 100S, a couple of mis-matched wedges, some mics that looked like battered '58s, and some mics that looked cheaper.

I'm sure you get the idea.

The equipment I'd be providing would be a clear step up, but how do I convince the client that it's worth the extra cash?

TIA,

Chris

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