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[Nathan Riddle]

Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions

---

1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call? ([client not sure what they are getting themselves into with production]. Okay... thanks for the details, we'll get you a quote within a week for your event. You should look into some other quotes and ideas though. Naw, I wanna go with you guys!)

2) What is the standard cross-rental supercharge to a client? (ItemA - Company A: 100$ to company B. Company B: $200 to client)

3) What is a/the standard markup for subcontracting a fellow company to a part of the gig (sound, lights, video, staging). (Eg. Ray providing sound for a festival for another company's gig)

4) Working with Government/Chapels. Any tips?

[Jonathan Johnson]

Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions

Not answering Nathan's questions here, but something that another thread brought to mind is that contracts go two ways. Your client bears more responsibility than just cutting you a check. I'd typically expect a client to provide adequate power, correctly wired; space to unload; space to set up; etc. Whatever the client is supposed to provide to support what you provide should be mentioned in the contract. The client also needs to understand what will be placed where; we don't have invisible loudspeakers.

If those things aren't in the contract, then they can come back to bite you. If you get there and the power is incorrectly wired or outright dangerous, if your contract doesn't specify what power you need, you may have little recourse. If it's all in the contract, maybe you will be able to force your client to make repairs or walk away and still get paid. (Unless you're bringing in a generator, the venue or client is ALWAYS responsible for providing adequate power. It's advisable to have the contract specify power requirements either way.)

Same goes for weather: that should be part of the contract too. How you will be compensated if the show is shut down? Who is responsible for calling the show for what kind of weather event and when?

[Art Welter]

Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions

---

1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call?
2) What is the standard cross-rental supercharge to a client? (ItemA - Company A: 100$ to company B. Company B: $200 to client)
3) What is a/the standard markup for subcontracting a fellow company to a part of the gig (sound, lights, video, staging). (Eg. Ray providing sound for a festival for another company's gig)
4) Working with Government/Chapels. Any tips?

Nathan,

1) Either the client got a glowing referral from one of your clients (in which case either the new "client" or old client would probably have informed you) or is bogus.
2)Deals must be negotiated depending on supply and demand. If both companies have similar rate schedules and inventories, a blanket % deal may be cut after a working relationship has been established. Remember that "companies" can trash gear just as individuals do.
3) Again, "standards" need to be established, but generally would be more in the "commission" range of 10-20%.
4) Stipulate hourly fees, additional billing for "change order" meetings, and additional charges for payments made past a specific date.
Make sure the contract is signed by a person with authority for the expenditure.

Art

[Dave Pluke]

1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call?

If they're offering to "over pay" you with a cashier's check and have you pay back the difference, RUN AWAY!

Do your research on the client.  Maybe they're been turned down by all other local providers?

If they are truly "first timers", proceed with caution.  I just came across that very situation and the perspective Client didn't know what he didn't know.  I'm more than happy to provide Consulting Services in addition to Sound Reinforcement, but expect fair compensation for both.  Instead, because of an unrealistic budget (compared to expectations) it's someone else's challenge now.

Dave

[Ray Aberle]

Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions

ACK! WHY?!? It takes a lot of time... haha.

1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call? ([client not sure what they are getting themselves into with production]. Okay... thanks for the details, we'll get you a quote within a week for your event. You should look into some other quotes and ideas though. Naw, I wanna go with you guys!)

BEST PLACE TO BE, for the most part. They've heard good things about you, and more importantly, they know and understand the value of good production and they trust that you're going to treat them well. To be candid, I would never suggest that they look into other production providers unless you either a) don't want to do the show / get the client, b) it's just more than you can handle properly, and you're prefer that they are taken great care of, or c) you're afraid that for some reason they're going to screw you on the show. They've called you. They found your name and telephone number. They're eager to work with you- unless you get weird vibes about it, build the relationship!

It's all about the relationship.

2) What is the standard cross-rental supercharge to a client? (ItemA - Company A: 100$ to company B. Company B: $200 to client)

Totally depends on both parties. I know, not what you expected to hear... If the gear-providing company is small and/or otherwise is losing other business by doing the rental, their rates might be higher. If they're not otherwise busy and it's a few days before the show, they may take a bit less because "otherwise the gear is just sitting here this weekend not doing anything." If the company is larger and the gear going out is in low demand or fully depreciated (or both!) then they may cut you a deal regardless of the timing. Either way, set and agree on prices, and stick with them. Or, "Tell me what you can afford for the gear." It works either way- one might be more beneficial than the other- but be consistent. I have companies I work with that it's a set percentage (on either side), some it's "what's your budget?" and sometimes even "I need your console this weekend, but when you want my console later on, let's trade back."

Again, It's all about the relationships.

3) What is a/the standard markup for subcontracting a fellow company to a part of the gig (sound, lights, video, staging). (Eg. Ray providing sound for a festival for another company's gig)

It's common to mention that you should charge enough for the initial show that you can afford to cover it with a sub if, for some reason, you are unable to do it yourself. So, that factors into this price. If it's a "racks-and-stacks" rental, then that gear rental will be discounted, but charge actual rate for the delivery/setup/removal fees as required. If it's a matter of my renting in another company to handle a specific aspect (a stage, or a lighting package, or whatever), then I would expect to pay the gear rental-less-cross-rental-discount, plus the actual labor involved. If a company wants to keep the event under their banner, and wants me to handle the entire production, I will, and will still discount the gear rental. But, I would charge full rate for my labor. Finally, if the other company just "hands" me the show, and I do the billing, etc, direct to the client, then everything would be regular rates/tax. [Some talk about a kick-back to the referring company. To be candid, the "kick-back" I get is the knowledge that the other company trusts me enough to make sure their client is taken care of. We deliver the best service possible, naturally, and this other company knows that I will treat their customer like my own? AWESOME!]

4) Working with Government/Chapels. Any tips?

I got nothing beyond what's been said. haha.

-Ray

[Nathan Riddle]

Not answering Nathan's questions here, but something that another thread brought to mind is that contracts go two ways. Your client bears more responsibility than just cutting you a check. I'd typically expect a client to provide adequate power, correctly wired; space to unload; space to set up; etc. Whatever the client is supposed to provide to support what you provide should be mentioned in the contract. The client also needs to understand what will be placed where; we don't have invisible loudspeakers.

If those things aren't in the contract, then they can come back to bite you. If you get there and the power is incorrectly wired or outright dangerous, if your contract doesn't specify what power you need, you may have little recourse. If it's all in the contract, maybe you will be able to force your client to make repairs or walk away and still get paid. (Unless you're bringing in a generator, the venue or client is ALWAYS responsible for providing adequate power. It's advisable to have the contract specify power requirements either way.)

Same goes for weather: that should be part of the contract too. How you will be compensated if the show is shut down? Who is responsible for calling the show for what kind of weather event and when?

Great points Jonathan! I was just modifying my contracts recently to include more of the above verbiage! I too saw that thread on contracts and wanted to add what some others had stated. Very good points.

Nathan,

1) Either the client got a glowing referral from one of your clients (in which case either the new "client" or old client would probably have informed you) or is bogus.
2)Deals must be negotiated depending on supply and demand. If both companies have similar rate schedules and inventories, a blanket % deal may be cut after a working relationship has been established. Remember that "companies" can trash gear just as individuals do.
3) Again, "standards" need to be established, but generally would be more in the "commission" range of 10-20%.
4) Stipulate hourly fees, additional billing for "change order" meetings, and additional charges for payments made past a specific date.
Make sure the contract is signed by a person with authority for the expenditure.

Art

Thanks Art, this is exactly what I needed. Especially the government stuff, bidding on some contracts soon

If they're offering to "over pay" you with a cashier's check and have you pay back the difference, RUN AWAY!

Do your research on the client.  Maybe they're been turned down by all other local providers?

If they are truly "first timers", proceed with caution.  I just came across that very situation and the perspective Client didn't know what he didn't know.  I'm more than happy to provide Consulting Services in addition to Sound Reinforcement, but expect fair compensation for both.  Instead, because of an unrealistic budget (compared to expectations) it's someone else's challenge now.

Dave

Agreed to your first point!
I didn't think about research, good idea.
Yeah, I've been annoyed with the 'first-timers-syndrome' for a promoter/client; it turns out to be a lot of hand holding. Which is relationship building, but I also don't get paid for all that overtime...

ACK! WHY?!? It takes a lot of time... haha.

Mac probably rolled his eyes when he saw this thread pop-up again

He must care a lot about your time...

BEST PLACE TO BE, for the most part. They've heard good things about you, and more importantly, they know and understand the value of good production and they trust that you're going to treat them well. To be candid, I would never suggest that they look into other production providers unless you either a) don't want to do the show / get the client, b) it's just more than you can handle properly, and you're prefer that they are taken great care of, or c) you're afraid that for some reason they're going to screw you on the show. They've called you. They found your name and telephone number. They're eager to work with you- unless you get weird vibes about it, build the relationship!

So I agree with everything you said... if it was a simple cold call to myself. The problem is I always have some weird complicated thing.
My friend/employee has a website with his somewhat functioning business in another city two hours away. He gets all sorts of random calls/emails from people asking for stuff. That's where this client comes from, my friend is asking for me to come up with a quote. So hey it's business, I don't know where the client came from and I'm supposed to provide a quote. I can't be a sub because he doesn't have insurance so I get to be the prime based on virtue...? I don't really know how this all works out between us.Its murky, but it's been working so far thanks to Scott's pushing me to be okay with 'murky'

Butttt. A potential client did call me and said she got rave reviews from a client so that worked out exactly how you just described! Woot!

It's all about the relationship.
Totally depends on both parties. I know, not what you expected to hear... If the gear-providing company is small and/or otherwise is losing other business by doing the rental, their rates might be higher. If they're not otherwise busy and it's a few days before the show, they may take a bit less because "otherwise the gear is just sitting here this weekend not doing anything." If the company is larger and the gear going out is in low demand or fully depreciated (or both!) then they may cut you a deal regardless of the timing. Either way, set and agree on prices, and stick with them. Or, "Tell me what you can afford for the gear." It works either way- one might be more beneficial than the other- but be consistent. I have companies I work with that it's a set percentage (on either side), some it's "what's your budget?" and sometimes even "I need your console this weekend, but when you want my console later on, let's trade back."

Again, It's all about the relationships.
It's common to mention that you should charge enough for the initial show that you can afford to cover it with a sub if, for some reason, you are unable to do it yourself. So, that factors into this price. If it's a "racks-and-stacks" rental, then that gear rental will be discounted, but charge actual rate for the delivery/setup/removal fees as required. If it's a matter of my renting in another company to handle a specific aspect (a stage, or a lighting package, or whatever), then I would expect to pay the gear rental-less-cross-rental-discount, plus the actual labor involved. If a company wants to keep the event under their banner, and wants me to handle the entire production, I will, and will still discount the gear rental. But, I would charge full rate for my labor. Finally, if the other company just "hands" me the show, and I do the billing, etc, direct to the client, then everything would be regular rates/tax. [Some talk about a kick-back to the referring company. To be candid, the "kick-back" I get is the knowledge that the other company trusts me enough to make sure their client is taken care of. We deliver the best service possible, naturally, and this other company knows that I will treat their customer like my own? AWESOME!]

-Ray

Naw, that's about how I expected this to go over haha. But yeah that all makes sense. How it's been working out is other shops give me their 'best rate' could be what they give to some clients could be different I don't know. And I charge some percentage on top of that, whatever feels right.

---

You're always killing it Ray

One day I want to come visit!

I get the opportunity to visit Caleb Dueck up in Chicago in a month, so that's cool!

[Tim McCulloch]

Time to resurrect this thread for some more questions

---

1) What does it mean when a client is adamant about going with me/my services before ever seeing a quote and it is a cold call? ([client not sure what they are getting themselves into with production]. Okay... thanks for the details, we'll get you a quote within a week for your event. You should look into some other quotes and ideas though. Naw, I wanna go with you guys!)

2) What is the standard cross-rental supercharge to a client? (ItemA - Company A: 100$ to company B. Company B: $200 to client)

3) What is a/the standard markup for subcontracting a fellow company to a part of the gig (sound, lights, video, staging). (Eg. Ray providing sound for a festival for another company's gig)

4) Working with Government/Chapels. Any tips?

1 - It means either word got around that you take care of your clients or it means the client is making a decision based on emotion of some kind, could be he likes your logo or your buddy in the other town.  Some clients that are "you're gonna be my guy for all this stuff" tend to be "blue sky" clients... because the sky may be the limit but the sky is the only thing they've got...

2 - There is no standard mark up on cross-hired equipment or services.  You should charge your normal rate for that item (or substantially similar item).  How much should you pay for it?  It depends (turning on Digital Crystal Ball, waiting for POST....), but if you're a good sub rental (B2B) client you'll get 50% off our rate card, if you only rent from us once a year you'll get 35% off the card.  If the rate to your client is similar to our retail rate card you should be able to make money.  Depending on other factors we might be inclined to toss in some extras (tech world pipe and drape, maybe, or some extra AC cabling) or give an additional discount if you come up with a good reason. 

3 - Art and Ray have answered this well.  My contribution is kind of "ditto to #2".  Ideally you bid the whole event in a way that if you had to sub out any substantial portion of it, you'd still make a profit.  For events where you know in advance you'll need to partner with other providers you should be making general cost inquiries as part of your due diligence in preparing your bid.  The concept of "you need to charge enough that you could replace yourself/company if you had to" is from Dick Rees (how's Duluth, Dick?).

4 - Government contracts are *very* compliance oriented.  You'll fill out more forms, attest to more things and generally have more contract administration overhead than you'd imagine.  As for chapels (on a US installation of some kind, I presume), talk to the Chaplain (the last person consulted, usually).  Your primary contact person may or may not be present where the work is being done.

[Cailen Waddell]

As a government employee, who contracts in additional services, I can attest to our high paperwork overhead. 

A couple good terms / things to know
A purchase order is a government promise to pay for goods or services.  It is generally as good as cash. Most government entities can not pay for services or goods before they are received.  Generally - No deposits.   Instead a purchase order is issued.  After the goods or services are provided AND you invoice us, we will issue you a check.  Our default terms are 30 days from date of invoice.

Most often the order of operations will be:
You provide a quote
I provide a contract based on the quote, we negotiate the contract and you sign
You provide proof of general liability naming the town as additional insured.
You provide proof of commercial vehicle liability because your truck will backup to our dock or drive into our park (this one drives me crazy as I can’t see why we require it)
You receive a copy of the signed contract
I submit a requisition and We issue you a purchase order for the services and encumber money to pay you
You provide the services. (The event happens)
You invoice me (I always have to push people on this one - the quote wasn’t sufficient y’all I need an invoice)
I receive on the purchase order indicating the services were received and you get a check. If you setup direct deposit you get your money faster.

I recognize I will pay a premium for the high level of government BS I have to put our vendors through. 

I will also say - most of the work that most of the people on this forum do is so far below our formal bid thresholds that I am shocked when I see other municipalities put our bids for this stuff. What an additional waste of time.  We follow purchasing rules religiously but voluntarily increasing a workload is just silly. We have a variety of vendors we work with, depending on the event, I may bring in different contractors because they all have different gear and strengths.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Luke Geis]

1) is a good problem to have. I wouldn't get too hopped up about it though. As mentioned, they either know who they want, or are pulling you for one. My bet is that if a company has a reasonable and realistic need and they want you that bad, they have already done the shopping and weeding through the muck. Your reputation, their observations and their expectations have been settled by YOU.

2) I am not greedy. I hate playing the money game. I offer all ( competing or not ) vendors a 50% discount on my gear rentals. I expect the same in return and in return, I will only charge the same $ as they do for said gear to the client. I will add time into the labor if it is needed. My hope is that there is no need to up-charge for something that doesn't need to be. If you can't be happy making 1/2 the $ on something you didn't have to purchase for your inventory, then you are just greedy. If I am charged full pop for a rental, I simply charge that rate plus any amount of time as required to acquire that rental. If company B really feels it necessary to gouge the client, then let them dig their own grave. When my client ask why a unit cost X, I will have a clean conscience.

3) Again there should be no need to mark things up. I think a finders fee is appropriate and that 10-20% is exceptable. If I am going to hire out and I know I will, I will do it for the price I would expect to be paid for with zero discounts. A price I know that anyone in the area would be doing it for. When I hire out, I will of course try and get the cost to below or at least that dollar amount. I may even shop around first to see where my window is. I would expect to pay as much as receive a finders fee.  I would expect to see between a 10-20% margin, with 20% being more typical. As mentioned on point number 2, I will offer a 50% discount on gear, but you will pay full pop on my labor. This should fit very well into a 20% margin for just about anyone. I know what I would charge, if I am low balled by another vendor to do a job on their behalf, I already know they a screwing the pooch.

4) Love or for money eh The government typically does not get any discounts for hired work. They are almost always prevailing wage. They demand so many other " discounts " that they can't win them all. Especially since we are paying taxes on that income anyway....... The Government has a buying period that usually peaks in September and the price that is allowed to them is rather cheap in comparison to what you and I pay. So charge them like you deserve it...... They demand the best and make things extremely difficult. You will be working very hard and you should charge as such. It's not that the government is evil, but you will never work harder to earn that money....... As for churches, I tend to go with charity with them. They can make enough money to do anything they want and the government doesn't take a lot of it, but they also do SOOOOO much for your community that you don't even realize. From food banks to even paying for utility bills, they do a lot. I am not religious, but you won't catch me dead trying to gilp ever last penny out of them. Treat them as a community services client. They have nothing, so try and not take anymore than your willing to give.

[Craig Hauber]

They demand the best and make things extremely difficult. You will be working very hard and you should charge as such. It's not that the government is evil, but you will never work harder to earn that money....... As for churches, I tend to go with charity with them. They can make enough money to do anything they want and the government doesn't take a lot of it, but they also do SOOOOO much for your community that you don't even realize. From food banks to even paying for utility bills, they do a lot. I am not religious, but you won't catch me dead trying to gilp ever last penny out of them. Treat them as a community services client. They have nothing, so try and not take anymore than your willing to give.

I do try to charge all clients the same rate.  Often a bureaucrat may attend one of those churches or service organizations and wonder at their day-job why your contract is so much higher than their charity one on the weekend.

So everyone generally gets the same base-rate but I itemize all the "red-tape" costs on top of that -anything that adds hours and aggravation gets listed so that when placed side-by-side with any other of my invoices anyone can clearly see why one is so much higher than another.

This may apply a bit more to my kind of rural "everybody knows everybody" area more than huge cities or federal gov't but it's a good practice as it still forces you to reconcile all those little details that eat away hours.

And always remember that your accepted government bid, contract and invoice gets filed-away and is now public knowledge forever.

[ProSoundWeb Community]