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[Brad Linboom]

Apologies if this is the wrong forum...Admin: please feel free to move.

Church on a shoestring budget ($6500) with and OLD and quickly fading system (primarily analog)...planning on replacing mixer, speakers, amp with:

 - (2) JBL CBT 50LA (in the same general placement of the old point and shoot PA speakers
 - PreSonus StudioLive 32
 - Crown XLS 1502

I've included a pic and layout for reference... (PA Speakers are to the immediate right and left of altar on beams at about 10 FT high... (the tan speakers are Organ Cabinets)

Background: Episcopal Church with a liturgical tradition (i.e. very infrequent use of any instruments outside organ and piano (Clavinova))... A number of Shure PGX1 (some handhelds and some countryman earsets). We record the choir with a couple of Shure MX202s and don't have a great solution for room responses/organ for recordings.  We don't sound reinforce the choir or piano. Spoken Word is the priority.  There is a possibility for a small band on occasion, hence a larger mixer for room to grow. We send house mix currently to a number of rooms throughout the building as well. Building is a classic 1950s A-frame where the congregation was moved "sideways" during the 80s with the altar now along the old "side" wall.

Questions:
1. General thoughts on these components?
2. Wiring question... Not necessarily looking to use the new CBT Arrays like the OLD PA speakers...don't need a "stereo" image. So, should I still wire them like a set of Stereo PA's with L going to one and R to the other?

Thanks for humoring...
Brad

[Mike Caldwell]

Judging from your pictures that's not a lot seating area to cover.
What are the speakers you have in place now?
It looks like there is more or less a speaker for each section of pews.

If they are a decent make and design of speaker with all working components
those should do the job.

Yes the JBL CBT's would look more modern and stylish but they may not really gain
you anything.

There may be issues up stream of the speakers causing the problems, what is the rest of the system.

[Brad Linboom]

Judging from your pictures that's not a lot seating area to cover.

The space on the floor sits about 200 (it's hard to get a good picture of the entire space) The balcony used as over flow about another 35 or so.

What are the speakers you have in place now?

They are Electrovoice Stage System 200s (The main issue is their placement and the fact that we lose sound image on the far sides of the church due to the narrow projection) In addition, the thought behind arrays was that if we reoriented the space, these would be more versatile.

There may be issues up stream of the speakers causing the problems, what is the rest of the system.

A VERY failing Mackie 32 X 4 Analog board circa 1996 with a couple of similar vintage Peavy Amps. 6 Galaxy Audio Hot Spots in the various rooms through the building. All the mics are a collection of Shure PGX1/2 transmitters and PGX4 receivers in the 524-542 MHz range with countryman booms on the PGX1s.

[Mike Caldwell]

The space on the floor sits about 200 (it's hard to get a good picture of the entire space) The balcony used as over flow about another 35 or so.

They are Electrovoice Stage System 200s (The main issue is their placement and the fact that we lose sound image on the far sides of the church due to the narrow projection) In addition, the thought behind arrays was that if we reoriented the space, these would be more versatile.

A VERY failing Mackie 32 X 4 Analog board circa 1996 with a couple of similar vintage Peavy Amps. 6 Galaxy Audio Hot Spots in the various rooms through the building. All the mics are a collection of Shure PGX1/2 transmitters and PGX4 receivers in the 524-542 MHz range with countryman booms on the PGX1s.

The EV speakers not really all that narrow as far as horizontal coverage goes, are the high frequency drivers working in them.

How many sections of pews are under the balcony.

The balcony will need it's own system for coverage.

How are the hot spot speakers through out the building being driven from amps in the "sound booth" or are they powered hot spots, are they just getting main program audio.

I'm guessing your Mackie of that size and age has a few intermittent problems.

Does your system need 32 channels, for what you described I'm guessing not.

[Brad Linboom]

The EV speakers not really all that narrow as far as horizontal coverage goes, are the high frequency drivers working in them.

Drivers in one of the two are intermittant.  Because the installers 20 years ago tried to keep the black speakers blended into the dark beams, they don't quite cover the edges of the sanctuary where the choir sits or under the balcony.

How many sections of pews are under the balcony.

4 sections directly under the balcony (also where the board is unfortunately located...one of the reasons for a digital board was the ability to have a tablet work surface to make some adjustments in the main listening space.

The balcony will need it's own system for coverage.

It already has a newer set of speakers and it works well.

How are the hot spot speakers through out the building being driven from amps in the "sound booth" or are they powered hot spots, are they just getting main program audio.

They simply recieve the house mix for now...with a digital, we could set up a matrix and have the ability to add verbal anouncements to the basement classrooms to let the teachers know when to send the kids upstairs during the service (they join after the sermon). The hot spots all have volume knobs the classroom teachers can adjust on the fly.

I'm guessing your Mackie of that size and age has a few intermittent problems.

Indeed... a number of dead channels, dirty preamps, and inconsistent gain control...and this weekend we just lost one of the auxiliary outs.  One of the things we are investing in with the new system is power conditioner/power sequencer.

Does your system need 32 channels, for what you described I'm guessing not.

32 might be overkill...but we do currently have 14 wireless (which we use once or twice a year for larger productions) 2 choir main floor, 2 choir balcony, 2 channels for keyboard, 2 wired mics (altar and pulpit) and then an 8 channel snake when we regularly had a band (something we may entertain again), to this we have 2 room mics for picking up congregational sound.

[Mike Caldwell]

Could you put up a picture of the under balcony area.

A power sequencer system is a great idea, it may take a master unit and a remote unit or expansion modules to provide enough circuits and sequence stages. I rarely spec and install without one.

If at some time you do go back to a full band or bring in full bands for special services the JBL CBT's alone may not be enough for the job.

[Brad Linboom]

Could you put up a picture of the under balcony area.

I attached both a pit from standing in the last pew (however this is will the sound board behind this pew and some seating behind that too as overflow. This pic at least gives an idea of the "corner" of the room.

I also attached a pic from near the other "corner" of the room looking toward the balcony. You can see the speakers better from this pic too.

If at some time you do go back to a full band or bring in full bands for special services the JBL CBT's alone may not be enough for the job.

Good food for thought. We have a Sub not in use that used to be in use and a set of wedges too.  What are your other thoughts about things to budget for?

Actually in general.  I am trying to begin setting aside money each year from the budget to a reserve account to make updating/upgrading easier in the future...any suggestions about what a "perfect" system might be comprised of for our use?  Specifically:

1. What to look for in wireless mics?
2. How best to record sound of the room (congregational response/singing, etc)?
3. Through your experience...anything else that would be helpful or just good practice?

Thanks for your responses thus far...I appreciate any and all advice (And yes... budgeting for a sound engineer if we do move the space around is definately on my list already :-)

Brad

[Mike Caldwell]

What speakers do you have for the balcony area, it may be a good idea to look at the same model or at least something in the same model line to cover the main seating area.

Nice point source speakers would cover the pews, one for the single section and maybe two on the other side with the two sections.....at least from the way it looks in the pictures.

For wireless mics, The Audio Technica 3000 series I always felt hit a sweet spot of price and performance, there is a new 3000 series version coming out here at some point, hopefully it's as solid as the originals.

For room recording a hanging mic over the pews on each side would work well, they could be fed back into the mixer and mixed in to a separate mix going to the recording.

Speaking of mixers, look at the various options in the Allen Heath QU series, good feature set easy to get up to speed on. I have the QU PAC 32 with the stage boxes when I need more channels.

You'll also need a system DSP and you may want to look at a couple new power amps for the mains and use your old ones for the room hot spot speakers and monitors.

Floor boxes in the stage with mic jacks are handy.

The list could go but your $6500 budget has already been spent at this point and thats not figuring in the installation cost.

[Ian Johansson]

Have installed a lot of CBTs, both 50s and it’s bigger sibling, the 100.

The CBT is a very interesting speaker but certainly not a jack of all trades with it’s unusual multiple 1” speaker configuration and very narrow vertical spread.

They have very little “body” to them and we always use them with subs.

The sound projection is truly remarkable but it comes at the price of phase coherence in the high register.

So I would suggest trying them out if possible.

One thing that comes to mind, though is the placement height.

Because of the very narrow vertical spread (only 20 degrees) , the height and angle at which the CBT-50 are placed are extremely critical. Without knowing the exact location, I’d say keep them a bit above ear level with a slight downward tilt, so that might be lower than the current speaker, depending on the position of the microphone.

Getting the bigger brother, the CBT-100 would make the placement a little easier as they have a wider sound field.

As for the amp, an XLS-1502 would suffice but the XTi-1002 is a better choice with it’s full DSP option.

Hope that helps.






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