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Author Topic: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!  (Read 7516 times)

Luke Geis

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Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« on: April 10, 2018, 01:01:12 pm »

So Yamaha has released a new line of speaker called the DZR. Whats is unique about them is that they are Dante enabled and their 12" model states 139db peak SPL!!!!! The 3 way 15" models boasts 143db peak!!!!! The question is how did they manage to blast the competition away in SPL with only a modest amount of power? 139db is 3db more than the next best thing and for the next best thing to do what it says would have to have a sensitivity of 104db.

While the 3 way box sounds amazing on paper, I was bummed when I read that it utilizes a passive crossover for the mid/high network. Another thing I thought odd was keeping the rest of the line crossed over around the typical 1.7khz range. So is it truly a ground breaking speaker, or are they cheating the numbers hard core?
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2018, 02:12:23 pm »

Hey Luke,

Looking at their graphs, the 3-way 15" model has a port tuning around 60Hz.

So, I ran some numbers on a top-end 15" driver (Beyma 15P1200Nd) in a ported box tuned to 60Hz. I played with the cabinet size so it'd have a response that's flat down to 60Hz. To get 143dB at 60Hz, I had to ramp it up to 400v (RMS) input. That's rather a lot of power*.
As a consequence, you'd be in serious danger of launching the cone across the room - it'll try to move 35mm one way. For that driver, the linear range is 9.5mm one-way. Damage occurs at 26mm.

The situation improves with a 4th order 100Hz highpass filter - you get 25mm one-way travel at 110Hz.

It's still not going to sound good, though, even if you could get an amplifier that'll manage that voltage swing.

So, no, they're not going to do those SPLs full-range. It's entirely possible that the speaker has an exceptionally high sensitivity at the mid-high crossover point, and dropping a lot of power in there might get a reading of 143dB.
I don't consider it a particularly honest way of rating speakers, but that's the state of the industry these days.

* A driver with higher sensitivity would need less power, but the amount of movement required of a cone to produce a given SPL is fixed. That particular unit comes in around 98dB@2.83v.

Chris
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2018, 02:35:45 pm »

A 40# 10" with the HF of a DSR would be a winner in my book.  Yeah, the numbers are specsmanship, but that's the way of the world these days.  Interesting that they're still using a 2"VC on the bigger boxes while trying to compete on output with various 3" boxes from JBL, RCF and the varsity folks.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2018, 03:07:45 pm »

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/japan/ja/products/speakers/dzr_dxs_xlf/index.jsp

They exist.  At least in the home country and on Yamaha Commercial Audio's "global" site but are not yet listed on the USA pages.

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/news_events/newsrelease/2018/0410_50_dzr_dxsxlf_czr_cxsxlf.jsp#
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Michael Thompson

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2018, 07:48:26 pm »

So Yamaha has released a new line of speaker called the DZR. Whats is unique about them is that they are Dante enabled and their 12" model states 139db peak SPL!!!!! The 3 way 15" models boasts 143db peak!!!!! The question is how did they manage to blast the competition away in SPL with only a modest amount of power? 139db is 3db more than the next best thing and for the next best thing to do what it says would have to have a sensitivity of 104db.

While the 3 way box sounds amazing on paper, I was bummed when I read that it utilizes a passive crossover for the mid/high network. Another thing I thought odd was keeping the rest of the line crossed over around the typical 1.7khz range. So is it truly a ground breaking speaker, or are they cheating the numbers hard core?

I'm not sure there is an MI box that the stated max SPL figures are possible with.  The amplifier power numbers are just as skewed on many products. 
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Geert Friedhof

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2018, 08:56:15 pm »

I'm not sure there is an MI box that the stated max SPL figures are possible with.  The amplifier power numbers are just as skewed on many products.

Not sure any very pro big name box can match that.
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Peter Morris

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2018, 02:45:00 am »

Hey Luke,

Looking at their graphs, the 3-way 15" model has a port tuning around 60Hz.

So, I ran some numbers on a top-end 15" driver (Beyma 15P1200Nd) in a ported box tuned to 60Hz. I played with the cabinet size so it'd have a response that's flat down to 60Hz. To get 143dB at 60Hz, I had to ramp it up to 400v (RMS) input. That's rather a lot of power*.
As a consequence, you'd be in serious danger of launching the cone across the room - it'll try to move 35mm one way. For that driver, the linear range is 9.5mm one-way. Damage occurs at 26mm.

The situation improves with a 4th order 100Hz highpass filter - you get 25mm one-way travel at 110Hz.

It's still not going to sound good, though, even if you could get an amplifier that'll manage that voltage swing.

So, no, they're not going to do those SPLs full-range. It's entirely possible that the speaker has an exceptionally high sensitivity at the mid-high crossover point, and dropping a lot of power in there might get a reading of 143dB.
I don't consider it a particularly honest way of rating speakers, but that's the state of the industry these days.

* A driver with higher sensitivity would need less power, but the amount of movement required of a cone to produce a given SPL is fixed. That particular unit comes in around 98dB@2.83v.

Chris

But ... the 15" driver is in a short horn; combined with the directivity of the horn and the horn loading (as guess above 200 hz) it may well have an extra 6 dB of sensitivity over some of its operating range.
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2018, 03:21:16 am »

But ... the 15" driver is in a short horn; combined with the directivity of the horn and the horn loading (as guess above 200 hz) it may well have an extra 6 dB of sensitivity over some of its operating range.

True, the short horn will help higher up in the range. Still, even with subwoofers covering 100Hz and down, the 15" will run out of grunt before it gets close to 143dB.

The CZR range (passive versions) have numbers that are much closer to what I'd expect.

Chris
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2018, 08:21:47 am »

.....While the 3 way box sounds amazing on paper,

The word you wanted to use was looks amazing..

A high sensitivity mid cone can get an easily achieved +4db "gain" over a narrow bandwidth with simple horn loading. Max measured SPL is fairly useless as an uqualified standalone number.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 08:26:57 am by Jim McKeveny »
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Scott Mullane

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2018, 08:22:34 am »

As with ALL specs. The context tells the whole story. Possibly they do reach those stated numbers and possibly the context is that they reached it for a nano second @ 1kHz after evacuating the space before the amp caught fire and the speaker cone shot across the room at mach II speed. So most likely not a real world specification. ; )
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2018, 08:41:17 am »

Constantly stuck in a world of how loud will it go. In the real world it will be how good does it do it's job, and how good does it sound. My wife can yell at 143db, just not for long so I wait her out and eventually she gives up. Very much like any speaker pushed to it's limit.
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2018, 01:23:25 pm »

Constantly stuck in a world of how loud will it go. In the real world it will be how good does it do it's job, and how good does it sound. My wife can yell at 143db, just not for long so I wait her out and eventually she gives up. Very much like any speaker pushed to it's limit.

Bob,

An extremely important part of a PA speaker's job is to get loud.
A specification that describes that is, therefore, extremely useful - it tells me what area I can cover at what volume level, and how suitable a given system is for a given event.

Putting BS specs on things has taken us back to guesswork, which is a shame IMO.

Chris
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Luke Geis

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2018, 04:01:43 pm »

I'm in the same camp Chris. I too feel that the peak SPL is an indicator of performance. I would rather run a speaker at a walking pace than try and make one scream to death trying to get the SPL desired. I never intend to find out how loud the speaker will go, but rely on that number to help determine if I can actually get where I need to be.

I pretty much take 16db right off the top to calculate what my real world SPL will be. I subtract 6db to calculate the RMS power level spl and 10db to account for crest factor. I then take that number ( whatever it may be ) and subtract for my needed distance. My current belief is that any speaker realistically capable of 136db peak should be able to get the needed volume up to about 50'. 136-16= 120db real world and by the time you get to 50' you should be able to acquire 98db. while you won't be kicking people's chest in, it is enough to get the point across and you should still have a couple db in left in the bank. This doesn't factor any sort of band limiting ( such as X-Over points ) and you in theory should have 6db left before clipping from that 98db. That is not where we want to be though. If a speaker can truly acquire 143db and we do the same math, we would have an additional 7db to play with. This gets us into the 100+db range at distances over 100' without having to flog the speaker to death.

I would love to believe Yamaha, but I am not so sure.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2018, 05:05:45 pm »

Peak SPL is a matter of science interpreted into "legal fiction" by the marketing department.

One of the things I've learned in the last 20 years - auditioning, specifying and buying "packaged" systems well into 6 figures - specs don't mean shit if you're looking at max SPL as a primary criteria.  Just buy whatever you think gets loud and go home.  I'll be soliciting your clients ;)

When you're serious about dropping real money on a system you don't have a problem getting demo systems or other accommodations to audition that system.  And it takes a real audition or 3 to get a grasp of what a rig is capable of, how it responds and how it works mechanically.

Ultimately, though, it's about the auditioning.  The rest is pretty pictures and window dressing.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2018, 09:18:31 pm »

Which I suppose is the intent of my comment Tim. Have you ever read a post that started out with how great the array or cabinet sounds in comparison to how loud it gets. Loud is important, but it's only one factor in the design of the system. And I say system because regardless of type one cabinet does not a system make.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2018, 10:04:53 pm »

Which I suppose is the intent of my comment Tim. Have you ever read a post that started out with how great the array or cabinet sounds in comparison to how loud it gets. Loud is important, but it's only one factor in the design of the system. And I say system because regardless of type one cabinet does not a system make.

Pardon my "geezer-splaining"... 8)
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Yamaha DZR fact or fiction!!!!
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2018, 10:04:53 pm »


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