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Author Topic: Klang 3d In ear Mixing  (Read 2804 times)

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2019, 06:51:22 pm »

Jason,

I'd love to hear more about how you did this, if you're in the mood for sharing a few of your trade secrets!

Not Jason, but...

Most digital mixers allow the input strip to select the input signal source so input strips 1, 2, and 3 could get their audio from physical input 1.  The strips could be panned L, C, R.  You'd potentially have 3x the number of inputs doing this but you could build a mix for each performer where he'd always be in the center, and the sources to his/her L/R from the appropriate pre-panned strips.  Think of it as a matrix mixer of panning.  I'd add that some ambience mics carefully paned and blended will enhance the illusion.

The additional things Jason will have to address.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 06:54:00 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Jason Glass

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2019, 07:40:46 pm »

Hi Dennis,

Of course I'm happy to share, and I'm glad that you asked! 

Rather than simply panning an input hard left or right, which places them into the left or right IEM, you can trick the mind into perceiving them as originating outside the soundfield by delaying the signal in the ear opposite your intended direction of origin.  Having channel delay with 0.1 ms resolution allows some very fine tuning of perceived distance outside the field.

It's also useful for balancing L-R spectral content while presenting instruments in their appropriate space.  For example, a bright, jangly acoustic guitar that dominates the whole right side of a mix can be spread to the left side while maintaining its spatial location by simply delaying it on the left.

Sent from my mobile phone using Tapatalk

brian maddox

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2019, 08:07:10 pm »

Hi Dennis,

Of course I'm happy to share, and I'm glad that you asked! 

Rather than simply panning an input hard left or right, which places them into the left or right IEM, you can trick the mind into perceiving them as originating outside the soundfield by delaying the signal in the ear opposite your intended direction of origin.  Having channel delay with 0.1 ms resolution allows some very fine tuning of perceived distance outside the field.

It's also useful for balancing L-R spectral content while presenting instruments in their appropriate space.  For example, a bright, jangly acoustic guitar that dominates the whole right side of a mix can be spread to the left side while maintaining its spatial location by simply delaying it on the left.

Sent from my mobile phone using Tapatalk

Brilliant.  And a trick  Iíve never tried.

Thank you Guy Smarter Than Me 😀
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brian maddox
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       ....for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup...'

Russell Ault

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2019, 09:54:59 pm »

Brilliant.  And a trick  Iíve never tried.

Thank you Guy Smarter Than Me 😀

Speaking of smarter than me, for anyone who's interested in some of the science behind this, the Wikipedia article on the Precedence Effect is a good starting point.

-Russ
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Erik Jerde

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2019, 12:31:57 am »

Hi Dennis,

Of course I'm happy to share, and I'm glad that you asked! 

Rather than simply panning an input hard left or right, which places them into the left or right IEM, you can trick the mind into perceiving them as originating outside the soundfield by delaying the signal in the ear opposite your intended direction of origin.  Having channel delay with 0.1 ms resolution allows some very fine tuning of perceived distance outside the field.

It's also useful for balancing L-R spectral content while presenting instruments in their appropriate space.  For example, a bright, jangly acoustic guitar that dominates the whole right side of a mix can be spread to the left side while maintaining its spatial location by simply delaying it on the left.

Sent from my mobile phone using Tapatalk

Iíve used this same trick in FOH mixing to spread sources into a more stereo feel while maintaining coverage in the entire room.  Usually only on BGVs and in really wide rooms.  Itís worked very well to present a feeling of stereo panning to those more in the middle without loosing the content for those on the sides.
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Andrew Hollis

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2019, 09:28:51 pm »

Brilliant.  And a trick  Iíve never tried.

Itís the Haas effect.

Put same source into left and right. Add delay to the right. It will sound like the source is coming from the left. So Ďpanningí but a bit more sophisticated and perhaps Ďeasier on the ears!í

Nathan Salt

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2019, 12:41:06 am »

Have used the precedence effect on out fill hangs in a very wide room.
4 PA hangs spread out down the room with stage in between the 2 middle ones.
Client complained when they were off to the sides it sounded like it was coming from the PA (well duh) and not from the stage.
So we slowly added delay to the outside hangs and it pulled the image to the stage. Crazy to hear it happen in front of you like that.
Seems counter intuitive as now the PA hangs weren't "aligned" in there overlap area.

Knowing about something but then to actually use it in a really practical way. Will definitely be keeping that trick in my back pocket.
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Nathan Salt

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2019, 01:26:32 am »

Have used the precedence effect on out fill hangs in a very wide room.
4 PA hangs spread out down the room with stage in between the 2 middle ones.
Client complained when they were off to the sides it sounded like it was coming from the PA (well duh) and not from the stage.
So we slowly added delay to the outside hangs and it pulled the image to the stage. Crazy to hear it happen in front of you like that.
Seems counter intuitive as now the PA hangs weren't "aligned" in there overlap area
.

Knowing about something but then to actually use it in a really practical way. Will definitely be keeping that trick in my back pocket.

Hearing the image come together is one of those "light bulb over the head" moments.  I've used it a bunch to demonstrate "why" we get all excited about the time thingy.

As for being counter intuitive... no, it wasn't.  From a straight forward mathematics standpoint you did right.  What you didn't do is optimize for where the most important person would evaluate your work, or know for sure what their standard was.

Quick story - took a Complete FOH Engineer class taught by Robert Scovil.  He spends a lot of time on the topic of time so there is a bit of discussion about *where* to optimize, since there's only 1 small bit of real estate in the Golden Triangle.  Students had a number of replies but the winner was "8 feet to my right, and six feet forward."  Why?  "Because that's where the band manager and wives listen to the show."

Now you know what's important to that client.  What you need to do is check to see if you made a new problem somewhere else while "fixing" the alignment for the client in that spot.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

brian maddox

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2019, 08:13:47 am »

...

As for being counter intuitive... no, it wasn't.  From a straight forward mathematics standpoint you did right.  What you didn't do is optimize for where the most important person would evaluate your work, or know for sure what their standard was.

Quick story - took a Complete FOH Engineer class taught by Robert Scovil.  He spends a lot of time on the topic of time so there is a bit of discussion about *where* to optimize, since there's only 1 small bit of real estate in the Golden Triangle.  Students had a number of replies but the winner was "8 feet to my right, and six feet forward."  Why?  "Because that's where the band manager and wives listen to the show."

Now you know what's important to that client.  What you need to do is check to see if you made a new problem somewhere else while "fixing" the alignment for the client in that spot.

^^this.  times a zillion.

I see a lot of guys with their sampling mics all over the room spending hours getting everything "time aligned perfectly" and i'm always curious as to WHERE it's "perfect".  Knowing where the WHERE should be is FAR more important than getting that WHERE to something approaching "perfect".
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brian maddox
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'...do not trifle with the affairs of dragons...

       ....for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup...'

Scott Helmke

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Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2019, 10:30:40 am »

So we slowly added delay to the outside hangs and it pulled the image to the stage. Crazy to hear it happen in front of you like that.
Seems counter intuitive as now the PA hangs weren't "aligned" in there overlap area.

Just watch out for comb filtering where the hangs overlap, because adding delay can produce a lot of combing.
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