ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Klang 3d In ear Mixing  (Read 2785 times)

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4263
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2018, 01:36:56 pm »

That's not where Klang is aiming this technology.
Said another way: If you don't get it, it's probably not for you.
Logged

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2018, 02:27:37 pm »

In my experience of IEMs, the isolation factor isn't SPL attenuation.  It is the loss of localization.  I note that IEMs are very popular in highly produced music but much less so in things like blue and jazz where musician interaction is paramount (and I'm deliberately leaving out "smooth jazz" as I consider that to be highly produced pop music).  Part of ensemble improvisation is listening to each musician's ideas and how they play off of other's ideas.  Getting on the same wavelength and then going off in response to something that somebody does and everyone getting on that wavelength.  This is very hard to do with a fixed mix of the other musicians in your head.  Improvisational players are constantly shifting their attention around the stage.  They hear something in the background and focus in on what that player is doing to decide if they will follow along or leave it as counterpoint.  Since they don't have time to signal an ME to turn up the piano for example, and then turn it back down again, they do this by localization of sound.  The cocktail party effect.  Focusing in on one sound source and mentally tuning out others for a moment.  Other times they may be listening to the overall blend to see how the gestalt of the music is going.
So, anything that lets the performer more actively and naturally alter the mix they hear will improve their experience and playing.  Audio latency in processing would obviously be a problem but tracking latency less so.  Especially if the effect is not very pronounced.  VR has issues with head tracking as you can move your head and dart your eyes much faster than a video refresh rate, so it feels unnatural.  But I suspect head tracking for aural focus won't need to be as immediate.
The ultimate would be something like the Sensaphonics built in ambient mics feeding back into a processor that would adjust timing/phase/pan of the mix to track with what the mics hear at the performers ears.
Logged

Jack Kontney

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2019, 05:38:05 pm »

...
The ultimate would be something like the Sensaphonics built in ambient mics feeding back into a processor that would adjust timing/phase/pan of the mix to track with what the mics hear at the performers ears.

Sorry about the Lazarus effect on this old thread, but it may be pertinent: The current Sensaphonics 3D AARO Active Ambient has a stereo output jack on the bodypack mixer (the "RO" for Record Out) that lets you send the ambient feed from the embedded binaural mics to a processor. Output can then be fed back into the monitor feed. Note that the 3D electronics are analog, so no latency issues.
Logged

Spenser Hamilton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 650
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2019, 08:26:52 pm »

You got that right Mac. The system base is $6500, and each 4 channel amp is $1850. $8350.00 to get up and going.

 Plus you still need a console to feed it all the stems.

 I remember attending a demo in Toronto a few years ago where they were really pushing the technology. Really cool trick, but not economical in the realm I operate in.
Logged
Technical Director - Chatham Capitol Theatre/Kiwanis Theatre

Christopher Irwin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
  • Los Angles/Orange County, California
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2019, 03:30:42 pm »

A few years ago I ran across it and thought that it was just a "parlor trick" as some have mentioned. However, I just spent some time at NAMM looking at this system and came to realize that it might actually be a good competitor in the personal monitoring market (particularly HOW).  For those who don't know, this company was just bought by Digico (or their parent company, I don't recall), which right there should say something about the quality and potential.

When you add up the cost of a personal mixer system for 8 musicians (Aviom, A&H ME, etc) the KLANG system price is in the right ballpark, with a significant number of improved features some buyers need and others don't.  It's UI is designed to be extremely flexible and powerful, but still able to "lock out" some features for users so that it can also be as simple as faders or even turning up down groups of channels at one time. And by nature of being software can be updated and improved unlike personal hardware mixers (I understand this also has its fair share of downsides).

It can take both MADI and Dante and also act as a converter between the two, so can be used with most any decent console these days.  It has 8 stereo pairs of XLR outputs for the mixes that can be taken directly to wireless transmitters or headphone amps, and so it does not require the $1500 dante headphone amp made by the same company (though they looked really nice).

Of course it's biggest selling point is the "3D" mixing because that makes it unique and stands out from all other products currently. It seems to be a huge improvement for localization and adding space in the mix to hear things well, though I haven't used it in a real world setting. Even without this heavily marketed aspect, it appears to be a good solid product that I would definitely consider demo-ing and considering.
Logged

Erik Jerde

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 796
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2019, 08:58:58 am »

A few years ago I ran across it and thought that it was just a "parlor trick" as some have mentioned. However, I just spent some time at NAMM looking at this system and came to realize that it might actually be a good competitor in the personal monitoring market (particularly HOW).  For those who don't know, this company was just bought by Digico (or their parent company, I don't recall), which right there should say something about the quality and potential.

When you add up the cost of a personal mixer system for 8 musicians (Aviom, A&H ME, etc) the KLANG system price is in the right ballpark, with a significant number of improved features some buyers need and others don't.  It's UI is designed to be extremely flexible and powerful, but still able to "lock out" some features for users so that it can also be as simple as faders or even turning up down groups of channels at one time. And by nature of being software can be updated and improved unlike personal hardware mixers (I understand this also has its fair share of downsides).

It can take both MADI and Dante and also act as a converter between the two, so can be used with most any decent console these days.  It has 8 stereo pairs of XLR outputs for the mixes that can be taken directly to wireless transmitters or headphone amps, and so it does not require the $1500 dante headphone amp made by the same company (though they looked really nice).

Of course it's biggest selling point is the "3D" mixing because that makes it unique and stands out from all other products currently. It seems to be a huge improvement for localization and adding space in the mix to hear things well, though I haven't used it in a real world setting. Even without this heavily marketed aspect, it appears to be a good solid product that I would definitely consider demo-ing and considering.

I first became familiar with the KLANG system through reading about it on the DiGiCo FB group.  Guys doing national tours with it who really liked it.  At first I was skeptical but the more I read about musicians really liking it the more I’m interested.  I’ve contacted my dealer for a demo.  I don’t have a quote yet but brief online searching has shown the KLANG fabrik being a little north of 5K.  It can do up to 8 mixes with no additional gear.  With additional output devices it can do up to 16 mixes.  Available channels for mixing are reduced by the number of mixes in play.  Multiple units can cascade and work seamlessly together to form one larger system.  The ability to have an engineer monitoring mode as well as for one musician to mirror another is great.  I’m excited to see the native integration with the DiGiCo SD platform. 

For 8 mixes it costs less than our existing Roland M48 system even if you buy 8 new ipads.  However since you can BYOD it’s potentially even cheaper.  We’re already using IEMs so the loss of analog outputs isn’t a big deal.  We’d need a couple of headphone amps but they don’t have to be expensive Dante ones.

It’ll be interesting to hear it once we get the demo in.  I’m expecting to have to find the money for it next though.
Logged

Frederik Rosenkjær

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 472
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2019, 07:21:28 pm »

Disclaimer: Klang dealer and user here.

Quite a lot of misunderstanding and only one post actually getting at least some of the essence of the idea behind Klang right so far: namely the “cocktail party effect.”

With regular IEM/headphones listening sound is presented the brain in a very unnatural way. We know we want to use stereo to get more space, but how often does our brain hear a sound at the same time in both ears but at different levels? Never.

Our psycho acoustic analysis system is super advanced and goes totally unnoticed every day. Its ability to pick sounds apart based on the spatial information our outer ears imbue it with is uncanny, but that system is rendered useless with regular IEM or headphones since all spatial clues have been removed. This is why IEM mixing has always been finicky and artists are always asking for things louder or quieter by miniscule dB-steps and often not being really happy with their mix at any time, whereas backline and wedges seems more forgiving - because the artist’s ears (or brain, rather) is able to do quite a lot of intuitive subconscious mixing for them, because it has spatial information to work with.

This spatial information is what the Klang system aims to give back to the artist, making for a more natural, more forgiving sound stage to play in.
Logged
Affiliations: Danley Sound Labs, Yamaha (MI)

brian maddox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2178
  • HeyYahWon! ttsss! ttsss!
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2019, 08:22:27 pm »

Disclaimer: Klang dealer and user here.

Quite a lot of misunderstanding and only one post actually getting at least some of the essence of the idea behind Klang right so far: namely the “cocktail party effect.”

With regular IEM/headphones listening sound is presented the brain in a very unnatural way. We know we want to use stereo to get more space, but how often does our brain hear a sound at the same time in both ears but at different levels? Never.

Our psycho acoustic analysis system is super advanced and goes totally unnoticed every day. Its ability to pick sounds apart based on the spatial information our outer ears imbue it with is uncanny, but that system is rendered useless with regular IEM or headphones since all spatial clues have been removed. This is why IEM mixing has always been finicky and artists are always asking for things louder or quieter by miniscule dB-steps and often not being really happy with their mix at any time, whereas backline and wedges seems more forgiving - because the artist’s ears (or brain, rather) is able to do quite a lot of intuitive subconscious mixing for them, because it has spatial information to work with.

This spatial information is what the Klang system aims to give back to the artist, making for a more natural, more forgiving sound stage to play in.

^^this

I've been struggling as a performer with this for the last 20 years, for while i appreciate the advantages that IEMs offer, i have never been TRULY happy with the outcome.  It became obvious to me some time ago that the sense of isolation i felt had nothing to do with needing "ambient mics" and everything to do with the stereo image in my head not matching the physical reality around me.

I'm not in a place where i'm likely to experience the Klang system right now, but i wish i was.  I've worked on some very experimental Real-Time 3D Audio Spatial Imaging projects recently [NDA prevents me saying more] and i am a total convert to the concept.  I'd LOVE to see how well Klang has been able to realize it.
Logged
"It feels wrong to be in the audience.  And it's too peopley!" - Steve Smith

brian maddox
bdmaudio@gmail.com

'...do not trifle with the affairs of dragons...

       ....for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup...'

Jason Glass

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 628
    • CleanWirelessAudio.com
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2019, 04:00:29 pm »

^^this

I've been struggling as a performer with this for the last 20 years, for while i appreciate the advantages that IEMs offer, i have never been TRULY happy with the outcome.  It became obvious to me some time ago that the sense of isolation i felt had nothing to do with needing "ambient mics" and everything to do with the stereo image in my head not matching the physical reality around me.

I'm not in a place where i'm likely to experience the Klang system right now, but i wish i was.  I've worked on some very experimental Real-Time 3D Audio Spatial Imaging projects recently [NDA prevents me saying more] and i am a total convert to the concept.  I'd LOVE to see how well Klang has been able to realize it.

I also agree.  When I was a touring MON engineer, one of the tricks I used, after digital consoles became the norm, was to send single head amp inputs to adjacent channels and manipulate panning, channel delay, and polarity to simulate spatial cues found in nature.  It was extremely effective, although often times wireless IEM stereo multiplexing couldn't handle it and would generate audible artifacts.

Dennis Muller

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
Re: Klang 3d In ear Mixing
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2019, 05:30:30 pm »

I also agree.  When I was a touring MON engineer, one of the tricks I used, after digital consoles became the norm, was to send single head amp inputs to adjacent channels and manipulate panning, channel delay, and polarity to simulate spatial cues found in nature.  It was extremely effective, although often times wireless IEM stereo multiplexing couldn't handle it and would generate audible artifacts.

Jason,

I'd love to hear more about how you did this, if you're in the mood for sharing a few of your trade secrets!
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.044 seconds with 24 queries.