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Author Topic: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig  (Read 6295 times)

chadlamson

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The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« on: February 26, 2018, 04:51:07 pm »

Hello!

Our church has a JBL VT4886 / VT4883 rig installed. We have been having issues blowing HF drivers, and after finding a post on these forums, I finally realized why. These speakers are only stable running JBL's V5 integration, which is only available on Crown's I-Tech HD amps. We are currently using XTI6002's for power.

So now I am looking to purchase some I-Tech amps, so we can run the V5 profiles from JBL.

Looking through JBL's docs on their V5 specs, I am a little unsure what amps to choose, and how many I am going to need, when using the built-in presets provided by JBL. We have 3 arrays, each with 2 83's and 4 86's. The presets only go up to 3 boxes per channel for the 86's and 1 box per channel for the 83's, but I know these amps can power more than that. Ideally, I would want to power one full array with one amp, so channel one would handle 4x4886 and channel 2 would handle 2x4883.

Is this possible using the JBL V5 presets?
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2018, 05:01:45 pm »

Hello!

Our church has a JBL VT4886 / VT4883 rig installed. We have been having issues blowing HF drivers, and after finding a post on these forums, I finally realized why. These speakers are only stable running JBL's V5 integration, which is only available on Crown's I-Tech HD amps. We are currently using XTI6002's for power.

So now I am looking to purchase some I-Tech amps, so we can run the V5 profiles from JBL.

Looking through JBL's docs on their V5 specs, I am a little unsure what amps to choose, and how many I am going to need, when using the built-in presets provided by JBL. We have 3 arrays, each with 2 83's and 4 86's. The presets only go up to 3 boxes per channel for the 86's and 1 box per channel for the 83's, but I know these amps can power more than that. Ideally, I would want to power one full array with one amp, so channel one would handle 4x4886 and channel 2 would handle 2x4883.

Is this possible using the JBL V5 presets?
Hi Chad.  You don't absolutely need V5 presets, but you need to be running the correct Vertec presets, which are only supported on ITech amps, either the 1st gen (V4 only) or the 2nd gen.  The original ITech amps are pushing 10-years old and have poor parts availability, so unless you're extremely short on funds, you want ITech HD.

The ITech HD 4x3500 is less expensive per channel than the 2-channel models, and perfectly adequate.  If you set the system up with JBL Performance Manager, you won't need to worry about specific presets - you setup your array configuration in the software, map it to the amps as you have wired them, and it handles the presets.

By the way, I have run my 4886/4883 rig with ITech HD 12000s/4x3500s VERY LOUD and I've never had trouble with blown drivers, so I am very confident that this will not only fix your problem, but you will get a very significant quality upgrade.

Whoever sold you speakers without matching amps didn't do you any favors.
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chadlamson

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2018, 05:08:56 pm »

Here is the original post where I saw about the HF issues. We do not even come close to running these at max output, but have HF drivers going out way too often. Here is the link to the whole thread as well: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,156610.20.html

Just wanted to update this thread just in case anyone else has similar issues...

JBL sort of resolved my issue by authorizing the repair shop to swap drivers around to make working boxes, and supplying a few new drivers for the remaining boxes. I would have preferred all new drivers, as I have already lost another driver which was one of the older "tired" drivers that were swapped around. But considering how long it took to get any kind of repair authorization, I decided to take what I could get. I will probably wind up replacing all of the HF drivers and starting new.

But with respect to the root cause of the failures, after probing other owners it was apparent that users only experienced issues when using V4 processing. Users on iTech HD's and V5 had no failures.

I also found this tidbit highlighted as a feature in the V5 processing readme file via Audio Architect:

Revised VT4886 LevelMax limiter settings featuring peak limiter side chain HF
protection for secure system operation and sonic transparency

So to sum it up, these boxes aren't stable on factory V4 processing with legacy iTechs/DBX 4800's. If you don't want to risk cooking HF drivers in 4886's, invest into iTech HD's and run v5 processing.

So if I run the Performance Manager, I won't need the specific presets from JBL? Which of the IT-HD's would handle the 4:2 array with just one amp?
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2018, 05:26:38 pm »

Chad,
Performance manager works with iTechHD amplifiers and will give you the correct JBL V5 presets. Performance manager is a JBL/Crown/ Harman program. They are all the same company.


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Jerry Prince

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2018, 06:27:10 pm »

Chad,

I have ran 2 VT4883s or 4 VT4886 off a side of a iTech12000HD without any issues. I wouldnt go any smaller then the 12000 in that configuration. But you could easily run each hang off one amp.

As TJ mentioned above you could do the iTech3500x4HD witch would take care of 2 hangs with one amp. TJ has helped me over the years with my VT4886 and VT4883 rig and is very knowledgeable.  I have also ran my rig VERY loud and have never lost a driver with V5 tunings.

Michael Storey

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2018, 08:15:49 pm »

Chad,

Sorry about your issues, but I'm glad the information in my original post is helping you head in the right direction. Also happy to report I haven't cooked any HF diaphragms since switching to I-Tech HD's and running v5 processing (and I'm confident I don't have to knock on wood).

For (what I assume is) your LCR setup, I reccomend you go with three units of either the 12000HD OR the 4x3500HD, one amp per cluster. As others mentioned, you'll specifically want to use Performance Manager to configure your channels and push presets into the amps. Also depending on which amp you choose, you'll have to do some tinkering with the input selector switches on back of the 4886's and change the parallel/discrete jumper settings on the 4883. This all isn't too difficult, but depends on how adept you are with basic networking, speaker wiring ETC.

The good news is once you get up and rolling on v5, you should see a MAJOR improvement over your current setup, as there aren't any 4886 presets for the XTI series that I'm aware of, and the speakers sound horrible without the correct presets. They absolutely sing on v5.

PS. All that said, Powersoft appears to have v5 presets available that according to them, have bested the JBL/Crown I-Tech v5 settings and also address driver protection issues with the box. I have no idea how stable the 4886 HF really is on their platform, but I'll include a link to the document below.

http://www.powersoft-audio.com/presets/jbl/VT4886/powersoft_JBL_VT4886_presets.pdf


« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 11:51:00 pm by Michael Storey »
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2018, 10:23:23 pm »

I too have a 4886 rig. I run entirely off of itech 12000hd amps. For the last 2 years weve used them on all sorts of shows, many very loud, and have never had an issue of any sort running v5.

We frequently run 4/side on a 12000hd, so for you I would say run a 12000hd to each of the three arrays and run one channel to the subs and one for the mains. 3 amps total get this rig sounding great, unless you need crazy volume.
So three amps total.

I will agree with others, these boxes are absolutely night and day with v5 vs an xti. I tried to use them as front fills with an xti and it was one of the worst things Ive ever heard. Put it on v5 and you are talking about a box that can hang with the top European boxes.


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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2018, 10:45:45 pm »

I too have a 4886 rig. I run entirely off of itech 12000hd amps. For the last 2 years weve used them on all sorts of shows, many very loud, and have never had an issue of any sort running v5.

We frequently run 4/side on a 12000hd, so for you I would say run a 12000hd to each of the three arrays and run one channel to the subs and one for the mains. 3 amps total get this rig sounding great, unless you need crazy volume.
So three amps total.

I will agree with others, these boxes are absolutely night and day with v5 vs an xti. I tried to use them as front fills with an xti and it was one of the worst things Ive ever heard. Put it on v5 and you are talking about a box that can hang with the top European boxes.


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The company I system tech for does quite a lot of 4886 work as well. My overall experience has been in hangs of 10-12.  For those one iTech4x3500 per hang does the trick.  We use use 4880As on 12000s for subs with the 86's crossing at 80Hz.  I have really found no need for the 83s, and often view them as simply eating up my trim when flown (Never ground stacked 86s before).     10-12 per side will get loud, and sound good doing it.  Having run these to their limits, I too have never blown an HF with the V5 limiters.   I was told by JBL staff directly that the side chain limiter I mentioned in the previous linked post is critical.

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eytan gidron

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2018, 11:38:25 pm »

Chad,

Sorry about your issues, but I'm glad the information in my original post is helping you head in the right direction. Also happy to report I haven't cooked any HF diaphragms since switching to I-Tech HD's and running v5 processing (and I'm confident I don't have to knock on wood).

For (what I assume is) your LCR setup, I reccomend you go with three units each of either the 12000HD, or the 4x3500HD. As others mentioned, you'll specifically want to use Performance Manager to configure your channels and push presets into the amps. Also depending on which amp you choose, you'll have to do some tinkering with the input selector switches on back of the 4886's and change the parallel/discrete jumper settings on the 4883. This all isn't too difficult, but depends on how adept you are with basic networking, speaker wiring ETC.

The good news is once you get up and rolling on v5, you should see a MAJOR improvement over your current setup, as there aren't any 4886 presets for the XTI series that I'm aware of, and the speakers sound horrible without the correct presets. They absolutely sing on v5.

PS. All that said, Powersoft appears to have v5 presets available that according to them, have bested the JBL/Crown I-Tech v5 settings and also address driver protection issues with the box. I have no idea how stable the 4886 HF really is on their platform, but I'll include a link to the document below.

http://www.powersoft-audio.com/presets/jbl/VT4886/powersoft_JBL_VT4886_presets.pdf

+1 for the Powersoft v5 presets, but I recommend using the newer X8 and X4 amps over the K3 mentioned in the link. They have a better sounding DSP than the K series. These amps have all the presets available in their Armonia software. I have also heard that they sound better than the Crowns.

By the way, these X amps have a huge variety of presets available for most major speaker manufacturers models. I would recommend getting such an amp and trying it out.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2018, 12:06:58 am »

@Chad-

You need I-Tech HD.  There is no mystery to presets as either Audio Architect or its fork, Performance Manager, will supply the Device File for the model of loudspeaker relevant to the model of I-Tech.  It's almost a no-brainer if you've used either software before.  No?  Read on...

Performance Manager starts you with base system design templates and you add additional supporting loudspeaker systems (subs, fills).  There is a pretty specific work flow that if deviated from, will leave you frustrated and swearing loudly (ask me how I know).  The good news is there are tutorials on Tube of You that cover basic workflow, most of which hasn't changed since they were recorded 4 years ago and PM has gotten much more tightly integrated with JBL's Line Array Calculator 2 and 3.  You can download Performance Manager from a link on any JBL VerTec loudspeaker web page, IIRC.

Audio Architect is the full meal deal and can control hundreds or thousands of HiQnet devices across an entire campus or venue complex and it isn't exactly "live-centric" until you configure control panels and workflow...  BUT it can also be used to load Device Files and set up/control individual devices, too .  If you've got a basic understanding of TCP/IP networking you should have no trouble... ::)

Seriously, if you need help with PM or AA and I-Tech HD, we have your back.  David, Michael, Eric and I can point you in the right direction if you need help.

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Re: The right amps for a JBL VT4886/83 rig
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2018, 12:06:58 am »


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