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Author Topic: Aux fed subs and break music  (Read 11993 times)

Scott Holtzman

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2018, 12:24:14 AM »

I understand what you mean about not wanting to add any additional high pass to the mains, and I do have processing already on the subs.

I guess the only option then would be to change the DSP output settings, and run a separate signal out just to the subs.  Instead of having the DSP run 3 way out to channel 1, I would change it so channel 1 is sub out, and channel 2 is mains/tops out, which would be 2 way.  Then hook channel 2 out to L/R on the desk, and channel 1 (subs) to an aux.  Then I'm not using any of the onboard EQ for the L/R or aux on the desk, and letting the DSP do all of the crossover work.

I'll have to explore the M32 a bit to see if I am able to route these 2 separate sub signals to the same output.  If not, would I be able to use a XLR splitter to combine them?  I am wanting to combine them, as one of the options on the M32 is to make the Mono/Center Matrix dependent on the main L/R.  This way the subs come down proportionally with the main L/R.

To clarify, I use one DSP per side for larger shows, so I have the extra channel available and can still run a stereo mix for shows.

Look in the sends section of the L/R mix.  That is where you send to the matrix's.  You can route a matrix to any output.


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Matt Greiner

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2018, 01:26:08 AM »

Ok, stop, you are getting into the weeds. What are your speakers, both mains and subs. How are they amplified? What DSP are you talking about? How is it all wired? What 2 separate sub signals are you talking about? You need 3 outputs, Left, Right, and Subs. Left and right come out of the console main out, the subs feed comes out of whatever aux send you are using. Left and right go to your DSP just as they always did. If the DSP can do 3 in 3 out the subs feed can go to the 3rd DSP channel. If not, you can do a simple LP filter in the console and not use the DSP on the subs.

Much clearer information is needed to comment further.

Mac

Subs
4 - Peavey VR218's, powered by 4 - CS4000's, bridged.  Subs are rated at 4800/9600 watts program/peak at 4 ohms, amp specs 4000 watts bridged at 4 ohms.

Mains
4 - Peavey QW2F's, bi-amped.  2 - CS4080hz for mids, 2 - GPS 1500 for highs.  Mid's are rated at 1200 watts programs at 8 ohms, 4080 puts out 1250 watts at 8 ohms, so they amps are a little much for them, but I compensate for that in the DSP.

DSP
2 - Peavey VSX26's.  They are a 2 in, 6 out DSP.  (They do have a 3rd in, on the front, used primarily for a reference mic.  This can be routed and used for a 3rd in, with some adjustments to the level)  Normal use would be to use input A and route to output 1, 2, and 3 and then input B to 4, 5, and 6.  All my VSX26's are routed like this, input A/B are mirrors of each other.  1 is for subs, 2 mids, and 3 highs.  I can get into specific settings (filters) if you would like, but the basic info of crossover points are 110 Hz between subs and mids, and then between mids and highs are 1200 to 1400 Hz.

For most of the shows I do, I use smaller subs, cabinets, amps, etc.  and the normal 3 way operation is perfectly fine.  Not considering running aux subs for smaller, inside shows.  (bars, reception halls, etc.)

However, in my large, outdoor setup, I run one of these DSP units PER SIDE.  I have 2 identical amp racks, one for each side of the stage.  So I only use input A routed to output 1, 2, and 3 on both sides of the stage.  When I tie into my desk, I take input A from house right to R, and input A from house left, to L.  This gets me my stereo mix.  The 2 separate sub signals I was talking about comes from having a DSP on each side of the stage.  I want to tie the 2 separate sub signals from each side of the house together into one aux on the desk, I don't want 2 aux controlling my subs in stereo.  That's why I was asking about tying them together with a XLR splitter.  Do that on stage at the digital stage box.  Perhaps in the M32 I can take 2 different outputs (let's call them 13 and 14) and route them to the same aux on the desk.  If that's the case, then I don't need to use a XLR splitter.  I did just get the M32 a few weeks ago, and am still learning what it can and can't do.  I'm sure there will be plenty to learn.

Also, I realize that for some, this is not a "large" system.  However, for me, this is about as large as I want to get.  Maybe another set or 2 of subs, because you can never have enough subs, right?
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Matt Greiner

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2018, 01:29:28 AM »

Look in the sends section of the L/R mix.  That is where you send to the matrix's.  You can route a matrix to any output.

Scott,
I didn't know if you could route a single matrix to 2 different outputs.  I will definitely explore more.

Thanks!
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Luke Geis

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2018, 01:31:30 AM »

Slow down turbo...... Lets just simplify this and run with the K.I.S.S theory ( Keep It Simple Stupid ). There is no need to over complicate the process.

1. You need to decide if you would rather use the outboard DSP you already have, or the DSP that the mixer has. I think you should use the DSP in the mixer. It is right there, doesn't require any additional patching and you paid for it, so may as well use it.

2. The M/C Mono buss in the mixer CAN be dependent on the mains. In the setup menu just look for the M/C depends on main. Then you simply use the Mono M/C as your subs on aux. This is the easiest and probably the best way to do this. The second reason is because the EQ section of the M/C buss will then have the crossover DSP. The Crossover DSP is not available on the other 16 aux busses. It is only available on the L/R, M/C, and matrix busses.

3. You can put any mix you wish on any output that is available in the mixer. If you want the M/C Mono buss to be on outputs 1,2,3,4,5 and 6, you can do so. I would try an keep it simple though. Left, Right and subs. If you need to send the signals to multiple places, then perhaps you can double patch.

To iterate the subs on aux concept, follow along. The subs on aux is simply a separate mix that is created in which ONLY the desired signals are routed to the subs.  It is exactly like a monitor mix, except it is for the subs. This means any channel you desire to send to the subs can be done so with complete control over how much sub signal you desire to have. It is a post fade, post EQ mix, so any changes made to the fader and channel EQ will change the sound heard in the sub. The Mono, M/C mix bus in the M32 is pretty much set up as an ideal subs on aux mix. It has easy access to the mix options and EQ with the ability to run a crossover if desired. Not all mixers can do this, so I say take advantage of it.

Not knowing what DSP you have, we only know that you have two of them. My guess would be so you can do mains and sub DSP work with only a 2 input DSP devise? There is no need to split and double back inputs and outputs if you utilize at least some of the DSP power in the mixer. I am guessing you have a 3 way system with Bi-Amp tops and subs with a lower end 2 in, 6 out crossover / DSP unit? Please advise if otherwise. If in fact you do have a Bi-Amp mains system, then I would utilize only 1 of your external DSP / crossover units to do that and simply send a L/R signal from the mixer to that DSP for the mains. I would use the internal DSP on the mixer to control the subs. This will make it so there is no need to send signals back to the mixer, or double up on sends.

What I am trying to say is simplify the setup. Try and get it down to the lowest number of sends and patching. Don't try and get tricky with routing signal back and fourth. What is the easiest way to get signal from the mixer, out of the speakers.
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Matt Greiner

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 02:05:12 AM »

Slow down turbo...... Lets just simplify this and run with the K.I.S.S theory ( Keep It Simple Stupid ). There is no need to over complicate the process.

1. You need to decide if you would rather use the outboard DSP you already have, or the DSP that the mixer has. I think you should use the DSP in the mixer. It is right there, doesn't require any additional patching and you paid for it, so may as well use it.

2. The M/C Mono buss in the mixer CAN be dependent on the mains. In the setup menu just look for the M/C depends on main. Then you simply use the Mono M/C as your subs on aux. This is the easiest and probably the best way to do this. The second reason is because the EQ section of the M/C buss will then have the crossover DSP. The Crossover DSP is not available on the other 16 aux busses. It is only available on the L/R, M/C, and matrix busses.

3. You can put any mix you wish on any output that is available in the mixer. If you want the M/C Mono buss to be on outputs 1,2,3,4,5 and 6, you can do so. I would try an keep it simple though. Left, Right and subs. If you need to send the signals to multiple places, then perhaps you can double patch.

To iterate the subs on aux concept, follow along. The subs on aux is simply a separate mix that is created in which ONLY the desired signals are routed to the subs.  It is exactly like a monitor mix, except it is for the subs. This means any channel you desire to send to the subs can be done so with complete control over how much sub signal you desire to have. It is a post fade, post EQ mix, so any changes made to the fader and channel EQ will change the sound heard in the sub. The Mono, M/C mix bus in the M32 is pretty much set up as an ideal subs on aux mix. It has easy access to the mix options and EQ with the ability to run a crossover if desired. Not all mixers can do this, so I say take advantage of it.

Not knowing what DSP you have, we only know that you have two of them. My guess would be so you can do mains and sub DSP work with only a 2 input DSP devise? There is no need to split and double back inputs and outputs if you utilize at least some of the DSP power in the mixer. I am guessing you have a 3 way system with Bi-Amp tops and subs with a lower end 2 in, 6 out crossover / DSP unit? Please advise if otherwise. If in fact you do have a Bi-Amp mains system, then I would utilize only 1 of your external DSP / crossover units to do that and simply send a L/R signal from the mixer to that DSP for the mains. I would use the internal DSP on the mixer to control the subs. This will make it so there is no need to send signals back to the mixer, or double up on sends.

What I am trying to say is simplify the setup. Try and get it down to the lowest number of sends and patching. Don't try and get tricky with routing signal back and fourth. What is the easiest way to get signal from the mixer, out of the speakers.

1. I think I'm going to stay with the outboard DSP for several reasons.  It's already configured to my systems, as I use multiple different systems with the same desk.  Also, on some occasions, I will use different desks or mixers, depending on if I have several systems working at the same time in different locations.  I also have 4 DSP's in total, 1 is another VSX26 for use in smaller systems, as well as a back up to my large system.  And the other is a VSX48, which is used for bi-amping 4 monitor mixes with EAW SM222's.  I don't use them very often due to their physical size, but when they are needed, they really shine.

2. I did see that, that's why I initially was hoping to use it.  But then I was told not to stack the DSP in the rack with the onboard DSP (which I didn't know, so I'm glad I found out.  Thanks Mac!) I abandoned the thought of using the onboard DSP.  However, if I can route 2 outputs to the M/C, I'll be in business.  Which you said is possible in point 3.

As for the M32 M/C buss setup for the aux subs, I agree it is setup to easily configure for aux fed subs.  Especially with the setting for M/C dependent on mains.  That is a key feature I definitely want to take advantage of.  I think I will just use it without the built-in DSP.

As for your last point, completely agree.  Keep it as simple as possible.  I do appreciate all the suggestions.  Thanks Luke!
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2018, 09:03:54 AM »

As the others have said your WAY over thinking this and the signal routing.

Personally I like outboard DSP processing, it makes the system more plug and play when using different mixers and can avoid an accidental preset recall if you do not have proper safes set to block preset changes from your mixers output filters.

Don't forget about applying proper high pass filtering to the subs in addition to the low pass filtering.

Keith Broughton

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2018, 09:39:06 AM »

Holy smokes!
Talk about overly complicated!  :o  I can't wait to see how this turns out.

I need some popcorn and a comfy chair to watch this one! ;D
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2018, 10:37:44 AM »

1. I think I'm going to stay with the outboard DSP for several reasons.  It's already configured to my systems, as I use multiple different systems with the same desk.  Also, on some occasions, I will use different desks or mixers, depending on if I have several systems working at the same time in different locations.  I also have 4 DSP's in total, 1 is another VSX26 for use in smaller systems, as well as a back up to my large system.  And the other is a VSX48, which is used for bi-amping 4 monitor mixes with EAW SM222's.  I don't use them very often due to their physical size, but when they are needed, they really shine.

2. I did see that, that's why I initially was hoping to use it.  But then I was told not to stack the DSP in the rack with the onboard DSP (which I didn't know, so I'm glad I found out.  Thanks Mac!) I abandoned the thought of using the onboard DSP.  However, if I can route 2 outputs to the M/C, I'll be in business.  Which you said is possible in point 3.

As for the M32 M/C buss setup for the aux subs, I agree it is setup to easily configure for aux fed subs.  Especially with the setting for M/C dependent on mains.  That is a key feature I definitely want to take advantage of.  I think I will just use it without the built-in DSP.

As for your last point, completely agree.  Keep it as simple as possible.  I do appreciate all the suggestions.  Thanks Luke!

I think what is making it seem complicated is you are using the wrong wording. When you say “However, if I can route 2 outputs to the M/C, I'll be in business. “ What you really should be saying is if I can route the M/C to 2 outputs . And yes you can as has already been mentioned route the M/C to 2 outputs.

So you can come out of the M32 with a stereo L/R feed and route that to 2 outputs, 1 being the left and 1 being the right. The left one going to the left DSP and the right channel going to the right DSP. And then you can route the M/C (and don’t use the crossover functionality in the M32) to 2 outputs on the M32 and feed one of them to the other input on the right DSP and the other output to the other input on the left DSP.

You will have to reconfigure the 2 DSPs so the one input on each is for the mains only and the other input on each is for the subs only. BTW I would suggest as you are reconfiguring this that you change the crossover point for the subs have the subs only go up to about 80hz and have the tops start at about 90hz. Yes I am suggesting that you leave a little bit of a gap in the crossover point. This is because as you windup raising up the level to the subs there will naturally be some physical crossover if they aren’t exactly matching and they are run louder as is always done. What happens when the subs ar run louder in relation to the mains is sometimes called hay stacking. You probably have a bunch of places in the DSP to store presets so you can make a few different ones with different setting and listen to the differences and see what works best for you.

BTW a lot of us were basically saying the exact same thing just wording it differently. I hope we have helped you and not confused you.
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Matt Greiner

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2018, 11:49:52 AM »

I think what is making it seem complicated is you are using the wrong wording. When you say “However, if I can route 2 outputs to the M/C, I'll be in business. “ What you really should be saying is if I can route the M/C to 2 outputs . And yes you can as has already been mentioned route the M/C to 2 outputs.

So you can come out of the M32 with a stereo L/R feed and route that to 2 outputs, 1 being the left and 1 being the right. The left one going to the left DSP and the right channel going to the right DSP. And then you can route the M/C (and don’t use the crossover functionality in the M32) to 2 outputs on the M32 and feed one of them to the other input on the right DSP and the other output to the other input on the left DSP.

I agree with you, I'm sure I've been using the wrong terminology.  Yes, it has been mentioned about routing the M/C to 2 outputs.  I did not know that when I started this thread, but yes, I did read that and plan to do that now.  Actually, this whole thread started because I didn't fully understand how the routing works on my M32, and the snowball has turned into a boulder.

BTW a lot of us were basically saying the exact same thing just wording it differently. I hope we have helped you and not confused you.

I believe my use of the incorrect terminology again is what has made this go off the deep end.  Normally I would have preferred to speak with someone about this, instead of typing it all out.  You all have helped, and I have been the one confusing you.  My setup with how I use 2 DSP's is not the typical way this is done from what I gather, and I did not do a good job of explaining my setup initially.

I have read a lot of threads in this forum, and it seems to be one of the best online.  People are helpful, and they don't immediately go negative as is the case in other groups.

I really do appreciate the time that everyone took to reply to this, as frustrating as it may have been with my lack of proper terminology.  My inexperience with routing and how that works with a digital desk is where I got off track. 
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Jonathan Betts

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2018, 01:50:26 PM »

With a 110Hz crossover between subs and tops you may find yourself still wanting to put things like guitar, snare, and rack  toms into the subs. Even vocals can sound thin. Are you boosting your subs in the DSP? If so the acoustic crossover will be higher than 110Hz.

 Just some things to think about if you decide to go this route. You may be better off just using the input channel  HP filters in your M32.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2018, 01:50:26 PM »


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