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Author Topic: Aux fed subs and break music  (Read 5620 times)

David Allred

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2018, 04:30:45 pm »

All generalizations are false.  ;D
Generally speaking.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2018, 05:05:21 pm »

Since you bring this up, I have another question.  When you guys do run aux subs, do you still have some subs that are connected to the main PA as if you were running just a L/R mix, and then have others connected to an aux?  Or are all the subs in the rig on the aux?
I ask this, because on another group or forum, I read a few members say that they ran their rig this way with some on the main L/R and some on aux.  Thoughts?

There are legitimate reasons to do this but most of them are either A) making up for a "main" system that doesn't have the needed LF output or B) where the aux-driven subs are more for sonic effect than for LF bandwidth extension.

Having to assist top boxes isn't new or limited to any particular array geometry but to use vertical arrays in an example, look at JBL's VerTec 4887/a and 4886.  Both have companion LF/"sub" modules that extend the bandwidth of the "tops" but do not replace bigger subwoofers on the ground (or flown beside or behind the top boxes).

Now I'll poke you with the Stick of Wisdom® - don't let the "routing" of the M32 mess with your head.  If you were capable of hooking this up correctly with an analog mixer you will be successful with the M32.   I strongly suggest you go to Midas's site and download "M-32 Edit" for your computer.  It's significantly easier to navigate than the menu structure on the mixer itself.

I agree if your tops are capable of being high passed at 70Hz or lower. I am only speaking in the Op’s case here. I didn’t mean for it to be a generalization.

Even the SRX715/815sp are quite capable below 80Hz.  We're still in the Classic LAB® last time I looked, where most of the users tend to be aware of the trade offs in their system designs.  That's my generalisation.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Jim McKeveny

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2018, 10:07:56 am »

We're still in the Classic LAB® last time I looked

Thanks for saying that Tim.

"Break Music" typically doesn't require sub output, from where I stand.
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Matt Greiner

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2018, 11:01:34 am »

Thanks for saying that Tim.

"Break Music" typically doesn't require sub output, from where I stand.

Wanting to keep a balanced, full sound when on break doesn't fit your requirements for discussion in this group?

Correct me if I'm reading your post wrong,  but are you saying that music played when doors open and also on break shouldn't have any sub output?

Now I'll poke you with the Stick of Wisdom® - don't let the "routing" of the M32 mess with your head.  If you were capable of hooking this up correctly with an analog mixer you will be successful with the M32.   I strongly suggest you go to Midas's site and download "M-32 Edit" for your computer.  It's significantly easier to navigate than the menu structure on the mixer itself.

This whole post is because I didn't fully understand the routing of my new digital desk.  Yes, I made a simple mistake.  But that's why I asked a question, to learn, now, before the season gets into full swing for me. Tim said what I've known the whole time, but I didn't know how to say in a post without coming off sounding like a jerk.  I know how to set my system up properly and have it work with analog (the Presonus I had didn't require any routing.)  I'm always interested in how we all do the same thing, but take different approaches at it.  Thanks for saying that Tim.  And also on the advise of the M32-edit, it is easier to navigate than the mixer menus.  I'm sure it will help me get more comfortable with the menus on the mixer with some time.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:19:46 am by Matt Greiner »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2018, 12:51:31 pm »

Wanting to keep a balanced, full sound when on break doesn't fit your requirements for discussion in this group?

Correct me if I'm reading your post wrong,  but are you saying that music played when doors open and also on break shouldn't have any sub output?



That's where my comment about being in the Classic LAB came from.  At your local arena or stadium or theater show the walk in music and set change music is audio wallpaper.  It's not part of the *entertainment* usually although some genres and performers want to "keep the party going" on breaks (and on Rapper Daylight Savings Time that could be a long time) but they're more exception than rule.

Bars and clubs are not the mainstay of most Classic LAB forum users.  We predominately work with "Performers You've Heard Of" in venues where sales of alcohol are not the primary source of revenue.  If that's where you are playing and working the expectations are different, but for most of us if the set change music is lacking below 60Hz its not a problem and in fact may be desired by the performers.

So is it desirable to have walk in music in the subs?  Sure, unless it's not.  ;)  Does it matter?  Maybe -it depends on the genre, venue and performers (and mostly the performers).
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

David Allred

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2018, 01:02:54 pm »


  We predominately work with "Performers You've Heard Of" in venues where sales of alcohol are not the primary source of revenue.  If that's where you are playing and working the expectations are different, but for most of us if the set change music is lacking below 60Hz its not a problem and in fact may be desired by the performers.

So is it desirable to have walk in music in the subs?  Sure, unless it's not.  ;)  Does it matter?  Maybe -it depends on the genre, venue and performers (and mostly the performers).

Are you referring to crowd walk-in or artist "walk-in / intro" music?  Some artists have very elaborate productions just to get on stage.  For those, best have the subs active for that playback. :)
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2018, 01:07:39 pm »

Are you referring to crowd walk-in or artist "walk-in / intro" music?  Some artists have very elaborate productions just to get on stage.  For those, best have the subs active for that playback. :)

Audience walk in.  If I meant Artist Intro I would have specifically said so.

We're a very performer-centric company.  We/I understand how to treat performer intros.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Matt Greiner

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2018, 01:48:08 pm »

Bars and clubs are not the mainstay of most Classic LAB forum users.  We predominately work with "Performers You've Heard Of" in venues where sales of alcohol are not the primary source of revenue.  If that's where you are playing and working the expectations are different, but for most of us if the set change music is lacking below 60Hz its not a problem and in fact may be desired by the performers.

So is it desirable to have walk in music in the subs?  Sure, unless it's not.  ;)  Does it matter?  Maybe -it depends on the genre, venue and performers (and mostly the performers).
Yes, I primarily do bars and cover bands.  I still want to put on the best show I possibly can, from start to finish.  I just didn't want to have an awesome sounding band, and then completely drop everything 110 Hz and below on break.  I did not mean to be posting in the wrong forum for assistance.

With regards to the OP,
I've always liked a bit of contrast between "break" music and the actual performance. 
-Don't make it sound all tinny and weak, but do have it a bit less "full" sounding than your band mix. 
I also use it as a time to reduce the SPL and allow everyone's ears to adjust back to normal a bit (for loud bands in small bars) -Also is a good time for the bar to make money so obliterating the patrons trying to order drinks with concert-level SPL isn't helpful (something that I've fought with for years when the club DJ provides the break music)
I also have always felt this way, that it is "break" music, not "show" music.  It is a supplement to the event, not THE event. 
This quote from Craig is all I have been trying to accomplish from the beginning, making a band sound awesome, and still having the fill music be "full sounding".  My brain was stuck a single channel, and I couldn't see the flow of signal for my prerecorded music to get to the sub aux.  It is a simple routing issue on a new piece of gear that I have now figured out, thanks to the users on this forum. 
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2018, 07:30:46 am »

Generally speaking.

Bonus points for that!
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Wes Garland

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2018, 08:03:52 pm »

Depending on the type of show, I often play modern pop as break music and pack the dance floor with it.  Believe me, this stuff needs LF extension or it just sounds /wrong/.

I'm not quite sure I understand the OP's problem, though.  Treat the break music just like any other full range signal.  How do you route your kick drum?  If you send it ONLY to the subs, you will lose your beater click....all boom and no definition.

On my system, I use the M/C as the subwoofer aux.  Any input that needs to be full range gets that checkbox checked when I'm routing to Main L/R.   I have "M/C depends on Main L/R" checked in the system setup so that pulling down the main fader kills the subs, too.

I do my system processing in the X32, I am mobile and often rent FOH at the last minute, even though the stage package stays constant.  If the FOH is full-range, I disable the high-pass on the Main L/R output.  If the FOH needs something special, I will develop a snippet for whatever that something is, and save it in the console (and on my USB stick, which never leaves the console except to make backups).  My usual setup is to have the Main L/R and M/C crossed over at 100Hz using the LR24 filters.

I like having the system processing in the X32, when I rent FOH I don't have time to learn another system processor, although I could use a Driverack if push came to shove.  Another nice benefit of using the console as the system processor in a mobile rig is that I can time-align the outputs independently, allowing me to delay the system to the backline and align the subs to the mains.  Then I can walk to the audience area with my iPad and tweak the delay if necessary. I also have Matrix 6 set aside to use as a delayed sub for creating a cardioid configuration, but I haven't had time to try this, yet.

I run my laptop into the X-USB for the break music, so I don't use up any analog inputs.  I have successfully played break music over USB while recording 32 tracks with my laptop.   I use a mute group to mute the band without muting the break music.

Wes
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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2018, 08:03:52 pm »


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