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Author Topic: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk  (Read 20493 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2017, 03:31:15 pm »


That said, when you find the 1 or 2 models that will work for 99% of your gigs, please let me know 'cause I'm still looking ;)
Of course if 99% of your gigs are the same, then you can use the same thing.

But then, you don't need "scaleability".

I doubt anybody is using the same model loudspeaker for a 20K rock show outside and a 100 person indoor jazz show.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2017, 03:42:34 pm »

This would be one example

https://goo.gl/m3a2Xg

In all reality he comments in that post it was "adequate" at the back.  This is for a fireworks show.  Different expectation than 50k people paying to see a dynamic show.

Not that I am really up with feeding the troll (the OP) in all of these conversations we have never put out a design by Danley against a common line array (pick your poison, Vertec, Kara, Nexo STM) stuff you see at a regional level.  Submit your material list and let's compare MAP and discuss the deployment challenges/advantages of each system.

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2017, 04:49:08 pm »


Not that I am really up with feeding the troll (the OP) in all of these conversations we have never put out a design by Danley against a common line array (pick your poison, Vertec, Kara, Nexo STM) stuff you see at a regional level.  Submit your material list and let's compare MAP and discuss the deployment challenges/advantages of each system.

Let's say a show that is 200' deep.  I would use a single J3 per side, 1 DNA20K amp per side.

I would use various models of other loudspeakers to see what sort of SPL and place mics close and at rear for freq response.

Front fills would depend on specific areas to be covered, and subs would depend on type of music.  I would typically like BC415s for subs.

Here is such a system for a Reggie show I did over the summer

The headliner was the quietest act of the show, with a good bit of headroom left

As far as rigging goes, push 1 cabinet into place-hook up the speaker cable and the motor and lift.  Pretty quick.  Just push the subs into place and plug them in.

https://goo.gl/HnwbHu

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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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brian maddox

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2017, 05:29:56 pm »

For reasons that are explainable but still inexplicable, "Line Arrays" became synonymous with "High Quality Sound System" somewhere in the late 90's.  Many people with far more knowledge and experience than i have tilted against this windmill for years to no avail.  Those who rely on this business [providing sound systems for events] to feed their families did the logical thing and bought the thing that the customer would pay for.  They then learned to leverage their purchases to scale up and down for various sized events.  This doesn't mean that the Line Arrays they bought were the best sounding solution for every job they did. 

This also doesn't mean that they weren't aware of this or didn't care.  For many folks this is a Sound Businesstm, not a Sound Hobbytm, and decisions need to be made from a place of pragmatism.  And since those people are the customers of the Pro Audio manufacturers, it stands to reason that they would 'follow the money' as well.

I think it's great that Danley [and i'm sure some other smaller players] have been able to create a business model that did not require them to follow the herd.  But those that were not fortunate enough to be able to do this should not be criticized for making the only business decision that made any sense. 




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brian maddox
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Steve Payne

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2017, 06:11:52 pm »

For reasons that are explainable but still inexplicable, "Line Arrays" became synonymous with "High Quality Sound System" somewhere in the late 90's.  Many people with far more knowledge and experience than i have tilted against this windmill for years to no avail.  Those who rely on this business [providing sound systems for events] to feed their families did the logical thing and bought the thing that the customer would pay for.  They then learned to leverage their purchases to scale up and down for various sized events.  This doesn't mean that the Line Arrays they bought were the best sounding solution for every job they did. 

This also doesn't mean that they weren't aware of this or didn't care.  For many folks this is a Sound Businesstm, not a Sound Hobbytm, and decisions need to be made from a place of pragmatism.  And since those people are the customers of the Pro Audio manufacturers, it stands to reason that they would 'follow the money' as well.

I think it's great that Danley [and i'm sure some other smaller players] have been able to create a business model that did not require them to follow the herd.  But those that were not fortunate enough to be able to do this should not be criticized for making the only business decision that made any sense.

Pretty much sums it up.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2017, 06:39:39 pm »

For reasons that are explainable but still inexplicable, "Line Arrays" became synonymous with "High Quality Sound System" somewhere in the late 90's.  Many people with far more knowledge and experience than i have tilted against this windmill for years to no avail.  Those who rely on this business [providing sound systems for events] to feed their families did the logical thing and bought the thing that the customer would pay for.  They then learned to leverage their purchases to scale up and down for various sized events.  This doesn't mean that the Line Arrays they bought were the best sounding solution for every job they did. 

This also doesn't mean that they weren't aware of this or didn't care.  For many folks this is a Sound Businesstm, not a Sound Hobbytm, and decisions need to be made from a place of pragmatism.  And since those people are the customers of the Pro Audio manufacturers, it stands to reason that they would 'follow the money' as well.

I think it's great that Danley [and i'm sure some other smaller players] have been able to create a business model that did not require them to follow the herd.  But those that were not fortunate enough to be able to do this should not be criticized for making the only business decision that made any sense.
I totally get the business side of things.  But will add a couple of things.

Some of the larger "point sources" these days have very little in common to the "point sources" of the 90s and earlier.  So they should not be in the same "family".  I like to refer to them as "single sources" of sound.

When line arrays first came onto the market, they were a sonic improvement of the "piles" of "point sources".  This is because they moved the interference from 2 planes to one plane.  But there is still interference, in fact they rely on them for the directivity, hence the need for more boxes, vs boxes that don't interfere.

Also there was a lot more actual engineering that has gone into line arrays, vs the previous boxes in which many just piled up drivers and then piled up boxes.  Yes it got louder-but got worse sounding every time you added a box.

When line arrays first appeared on the market, they were laughed at by the "general road guys".  It took a number of years before they started to get accepted.  They were not "automatically" put on all the riders. 

When you look at the business from a different angle, if you are selling (renting) a service, vs just gear, it can make good business sense to have more room on the truck, have a faster setup/teardown time, require smaller power sources etc.

I don't see an big established companies changing their ways anytime soon (just like when line arrays first came around), but the younger up and coming companies are seeing the monetary advantage, and they are also delivering the sonic advantages to their audiences.

And of course all kinds of people who don't provide sound LOVE line arrays.  The loudspeaker driver manufacturers, the amp manufacturers, the guys selling the line arrays (more commission per size of event) etc. 
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Ivan Beaver
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brian maddox

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2017, 07:49:54 pm »

I totally get the business side of things.  But will add a couple of things.

...

When line arrays first came onto the market, they were a sonic improvement of the "piles" of "point sources".  This is because they moved the interference from 2 planes to one plane.  But there is still interference, in fact they rely on them for the directivity, hence the need for more boxes, vs boxes that don't interfere.

...

Agreed.  And i think this tended to create a feedback loop where "Line Array" meant "better sound" and therefore was easier to sell which fueled more R&D for Line Arrays that did in fact lead to "better sound"-ish.  But i think it could be argued that had the same amount of R&D and effort been put into improving the "Point Source" systems of the day there would have been substantial improvements there as well.  I think Danley's work in this area kinda speaks directly to this point.

You also make an interesting point that has always been a bone of contention for me.  "Let's eliminate some of the driver interference by moving the variable zone of coverage from 2 planes to 1".  Well, yeah, that'll reduce some of your interference issues.  But...  What do you do when what you really need is 107.5 degrees of horizontal coverage and all you have is a 90 degree array and a 120 degree array?  How many years did we work with arrays with widely adjustable horizontal coverage only to throw it all out the window and accept that our new systems were gonna have a fixed horizontal coverage and that would be fine?  It seemed a crazy idea to me at the time and it still does...
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brian maddox
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Alberto Escrina

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2017, 08:31:50 pm »


Really, Alberto, I'm still trying to get the point of this new thread. What are you asking---- and is it something new beyond what's been discussed before?
I look forward to hearing what your intent is with this new thread, and to be candid, active participation on your part to help shape/guide your conversation (especially when the initial intent is unclear) is very beneficial.

-Ray

Ray, it looks that, on the best scenario, we can't understand each other and, on the worst, it seems you think I'have some hidden intentions which I don't.
I don't know also the content on all previous threats on this issue but it looks, because all contributions, forum members have still some things to say.
I'm sorry to tell you that I don't intend to talk about any of you or your companies in particular.
All I want t do is to talk about technologies.
Pattern control is achieved nowadays mainly by arraying elements in line or by horn loading them. In fact, most line arrays employ a combination of them: line arraying, horn loading and tight vertical isophasic waveguides but that's another issue.
As we have seen before, and I believe most of us agree with, horn loading is, by far, the most efficient solution.
Column dispersion characteristics, isophasic waveguides and so were well known for decades but the most impressive contribution to high output line arrays L'Acoustics have made in the 80's was to pack those elements on a way they could be easily scaled depending on the task.
And, in my opinion, V-DOSC variable angle rigging design was as important as the packing design itself.
Now finally my main question again and borrowing Doug's words: Who has a pointer to a modern "point source" system that scales up to arena/festival work or larger?
High output scalable point source systems, horn loading most of their elements in order to get high output and including rigging hardware in order to achieve sphere sections easily for minimizing multiple arrival times.



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Alberto Escriña
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2017, 09:24:58 pm »

But...  What do you do when what you really need is 107.5 degrees of horizontal coverage and all you have is a 90 degree array and a 120 degree array? 
If you look at the polar patters/directivity plot etc of ANY loudspeaker, you will see that the patterns move around anywhere from a fair bit to "all over the place", depending on the freq.

The rated pattern is just a general number that is given, for which the design might have been for, but the ACTUAL coverage angle is often anything but that-depending on how accurate or fudge factor you want to apply.

And then you also have to say-how low do I need this pattern to go?  MANY loudspeakers only have something close to their rated pattern in the top couple of octave.

I really love people who want a "rotatable horn" on a small cabinet and "think" that they actually have pattern control, but yet the horn only has that control above 6 or 8Khz.

That is not what they would like to have, but the marketing has them "believing" that they are actually doing something---------

Just like the line array general marketing.  There are all sorts of claims that simply are not true, but it seems like a good idea and is real easy to draw.  But actual measurements show other wise
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2017, 09:31:57 pm »


Now finally my main question again and borrowing Doug's words: Who has a pointer to a modern "point source" system that scales up to arena/festival work or larger?
High output scalable point source systems, horn loading most of their elements in order to get high output and including rigging hardware in order to achieve sphere sections easily for minimizing multiple arrival times.
The basic problem with anything that "scales", is that now you will have interference at some level.

I stand by my idea that instead of having a system that "scales", you simply have multiple systems, and use the best one for the particular job. That approach will cost less, be smaller in size, less weight, and give you greater options-especially on the larger shows.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2017, 09:31:57 pm »


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