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Author Topic: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk  (Read 20492 times)

Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 04:18:08 am »

Probably I din't make myself clear when stating "..most companies are not run by audio passionate anymore. They are run by accountants and lawyers or.... holdings". I was not talking about users, I was talking about sound systems manufacturers.
Users will buy and use whatever fill their needs because of any reason(s) they consider relevant to run successfully their companies.
The point is, and now trying to answer to Ray, all of you agree that line array revelation not only do not contribute to better sound but, besides, they cost a lot more because it is a low efficiency technology by nature.
Users are buying, transporting and flying probably half of of their systems to cancel selectively the other half in order to achieve the required vertical dispersion pattern.
That's why you need delay towers at 50 meters from the stage where you have flown tons of $$$.
The point is: appart from Tom Danley, George Krampera, Tony Andrews or Bruce Howze, where are the Dr Heils of the XXI century working to put where point source systems deserve to be?
I think most manufacturers choose to stay in their comfort zone because "if they want line arrays I will manufacture and sale line arrays".
The point is, and now borrowing Doug's words: Who has a pointer (no pun intended) to a modern "point source" system that scales up to arena/festival work or larger?
 

If you think I point source system for an arena size even will cost any less then a line array system for the same you will be sorely mistaken.

What do you recommend for sub in your situation, do you do a massive 10m+ large horn flown so that your point source loudspeaker is truly full range and directional down to there or do you use a conventional line array for subs or any similar setup that stems from antenna theory?

Line arrays have their limitations but arguably the limitations you complain about 90% of the audience doesn't care about whereas I'm sure they will complain about 4 10mx10m horns flown over the stage never mind the increased ticket prices to make up for the rigging and transport nightmare that would cause and for a marginally better sound?

For the revolutionaries how about looking at what EAW and Martin audio are doing in the line array department, point source has it's place but unfortunately I don't see it being a touring standard for numerous reasons, part of them being that the law's of physics apply and it is significantly easier to use them to your advantage in an array then in a single source.

There are many situations where a point source would be the correct solution and it isn't used, there are also many situations where it is simply impractical.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 04:36:00 am »

Probably I din't make myself clear when stating "..most companies are not run by audio passionate anymore. They are run by accountants and lawyers or.... holdings". I was not talking about users, I was talking about sound systems manufacturers.
[/quoute]

I know English is not your first language but I don't get this.  We are all users except the vendors here.  Vendors love line arrays they sell more boxes.

You ignored my question about your role.  Engaging in mental masturbation,  even in the name of pedigogary, is tedious.


Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 04:40:59 am by Scott Holtzman »
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2017, 08:17:48 am »

I have no dog in this fight, but this is a topic discussed to virtual death in the past. We are provided with tools based upon our needs, and as with any other business, the tool you use will be a compromise between the ability to do the job properly, customers requirements, and costs overall. Simply put, again, it's a business decision.

On the flip side there are very, very few point source systems, regardless of scale, capable of correctly supporting an act working in a 50,000 seat arena. Just ask the Beatles. (LOL)
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 09:00:30 am »


On the flip side there are very, very few point source systems, regardless of scale, capable of correctly supporting an act working in a 50,000 seat arena. Just ask the Beatles. (LOL)

This would be one example

https://goo.gl/m3a2Xg

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Spenser Hamilton

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2017, 12:32:27 pm »

This would be one example

https://goo.gl/m3a2Xg

Now advise us all how we can break those J3s down into 3 or 4 smaller rigs to do B & C stages at a festival, and then I think you have a winner  ;D
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2017, 01:16:13 pm »

Now advise us all how we can break those J3s down into 3 or 4 smaller rigs to do B & C stages at a festival, and then I think you have a winner  ;D
First of all, the J3s really are not that huge and unmanageable. If you look on their site and you will find a WIDE variety of speakers that would do just fine for smaller gigs.
In fact, I think if you were to break down the cost of a fairly large line array package that you then "scale" to smaller shows and compared it to a 3 stage "point source" package, you might find a surprise.

I can't speak for all of us here but I would imagine that a lot of us are not providing systems for 50,000 seat venues and end up buying a line array due to customer "requirements" even if they don't understand what they are asking for, or, if it is really suitable for their gig.
Since when does the customer tell the mechanic or doctor what tools to use for the job ::)
So, we end up doing those small gigs with parts of the line array inventory knowing full well it's a compromise. Please, save me from 4 box line array small systems!!!
For those of us not having to comply with an equipment spec and not doing huge venues, (and there are many of us) the question of line array or point source is a valid one.
In my case, I would say that 90% of the shows I do could be done, very effectively, with well chosen "point source" speaker systems.

In the end, as I have said before, the audience doesn't seem to give a crap anyway.... :(


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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2017, 01:51:04 pm »

Now advise us all how we can break those J3s down into 3 or 4 smaller rigs to do B & C stages at a festival, and then I think you have a winner  ;D
Exactly as Keith says.  Simply buy 2 systems, a large one and a smaller one.

If you do that, you will STILL come out ahead.  The 2 systems will be less expensive than 1 large line array, smaller in physical size (ie take up less room in the truck), weigh less (you can put more stuff in the truck), use fewer amplifiers (again less weight and money and size).

PLUS if you have 2 systems, on the larger shows, you have the smaller one for fills or whatever.  Which would mean you would need MORE line arrays for those purposes-so the total cost of the line array just went up.  More cabinets, more amps etc.

So instead of "scaleability", why not have 2 proper rigs to choose from.

Nobody says you must use the same rig for small and large shows.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2017, 02:03:01 pm »

(Insert any one of the 10-20 threads apparently about this same subject made in the last five years, since I *really* don't want to make a nice, long post duplicating what I have said previously...)

Really, Alberto, I'm still trying to get the point of this new thread. What are you asking---- and is it something new beyond what's been discussed before?

[I will also note that I did NOT use sound quality as a deciding factor in my decisions to purchase a larger format system to complement and expand upon my other rigs. However, I also am NOT stating that "they do not contribute to better sound." Every room and venue is different, and so to paint with such broad strokes would be inaccurate.]

I look forward to hearing what your intent is with this new thread, and to be candid, active participation on your part to help shape/guide your conversation (especially when the initial intent is unclear) is very beneficial.

-Ray
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Spenser Hamilton

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2017, 03:10:57 pm »

(Insert any one of the 10-20 threads apparently about this same subject made in the last five years, since I *really* don't want to make a nice, long post duplicating what I have said previously...)

-Ray

This.

Every time we do this topic, we get to the same point, everybody butts heads and then the thread gets locked. A PA provider doesn't want to own a WIDE variety of speakers, they want to own one or two models that will do 99% of their work.
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2017, 03:17:35 pm »

This.

Every time we do this topic, we get to the same point, everybody butts heads and then the thread gets locked. A PA provider doesn't want to own a WIDE variety of speakers, they want to own one or two models that will do 99% of their work.
It reminds me of "what oil is best" on motorcycle sites. We never get to a real solution  :D

That said, when you find the 1 or 2 models that will work for 99% of your gigs, please let me know 'cause I'm still looking ;)
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Re: Line vs Point Sources - Open talk
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2017, 03:17:35 pm »


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