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Author Topic: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..  (Read 11285 times)

Rob Spence

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2018, 04:24:22 PM »

To quote Tim,   ^^^This.  ^^^Right.  ^^^Here.

(Just channeling my inner curmudgeon)

Henry, you beat me to it.


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Brad Jekko

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2018, 06:51:41 PM »

I am getting the feedback about how adding more speakers is likely to subtract rather than add from the experience, but front fill as the dry mono part of an LCR system seems like a reasonable goal to try to achieve to some degree.  Especially with only bass, drums, vox and guitar on stage, I can pan and add more fx and leave some more vox through the mono speakers in the middle.  I intend for the front fill to compliment the L and R, not actually be the center of an LCR system. More of an L (c) R system really.  It would at least add to the sound for those close up, even if it doesn't add to the overall sound further back.  It might be I have only created a system that sounds good close, and worse at the back, but I can always back the front fill out of the mix, once the room fills.

But back to the question of the post, I want to know is do you all run front fills with the front of the speaker at a 90 degree angle to the floor or do you have them slanted back a little bit like a monitor?  And is there any advantage in pushing the 1" horn ends of the bins tightly against each other, so that it seems like one horn at the front of the stage, likewise would the 12 woofers pushed up against each other work?

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Luke Geis

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2018, 07:42:25 PM »

It goes without saying that if there isn't enough coverage in the front of stage area, that FF will be needed.

What makes FF's work? The idea is simple. They are placed on the lip of the stage, typically in the lowest profile position ( on there sides ) and are set to be in time with the mains. They are typically band limited ( lows rolled off ) so that only the relevant media needed to hit the listeners ears is produced. Since the stage is usually lower in height than the mains are usually placed, the FF's can't really be heard more than a few rows back. This is because there are usually blood bags in the way, and because they should be low enough in volume that by the time you are in the coverage of the mains, the FF's just disappear. Since the FF's are timed to the mains, you don't really notice them once you are in the full coverage of the mains. 

How many FF's and where on the front of the stage is dependent upon how well the mains cover. If the mains are directly off side stage and are pointed pretty much straight out, a single FF in the center of the stage can usually do the trick. If the stage is really wide and the mains far apart as well, you may need three or four FF's to cover the front area. The concept is the same either way. Put sound where it currently isn't.

The best FF speakers are usually smaller in size and designed to lay flat on their sides. You typically don't want to use full size model speakers stood up in their normal orientation. They would just be too obtrusive with that type and orientation. I typically use a set of Vue Audiotechnik i-2X4.5 model speakers for FF laid on their sides and they not only sound fantastic, but are really low profile. The beauty of these units is that they are rather cheap and sound really good and are easy to power. They can make be fitted with speakon connectors as well. 
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David Winners

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2018, 08:02:38 PM »

You are designing a system that will sound different at every location and good in none of them. The less sources of sound, the better. If you take 2 mediocre (or even good) speakers and add them together, they will sound worse than either one alone.

There is a time and place for fill speakers. Your general club gig isn't one of them IMHO. Well implemented fills don't add anything perceptible. You shouldn't notice them unless they are off. They should only add what is missing because of holes in your coverage. The objective of front fills is not to add a center (c or C) source of audio to the room.

A more common use for fills, barring installs,  is in a festival type setting where you want coverage in an area that the FOH system will not reach because of distance or coverage angle. 

If you start trying to increase the midrange in the room by blasting front fills at the punters knees or at the ceiling above the dance floor, you're going to end up with a soup sandwich.

If your speakers don't sound like you want them to and no amount of processing you have tried makes them acceptable, your only solution is to get better sounding speakers.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2018, 12:24:09 AM »

There is a deployment called in fill.  If you manage to get your mains up high and projecting to the back of the room it is sometimes possible to have smaller speakers below the aimed inwards to get the vocals above the volume of the stage wash right in front.  To do this successfully you need to keep the in fills from interacting with the mains as much as possible.  As Luke said, this means high passing them to minimize the interference at lower frequencies where you don't have pattern control and the wavelengths are long enough to create large noticeable nodes and holes right where your most interested patrons are.  Typically the wash from subs keeps the in fills from sounding excessively bright.  But in your situation, you don't have subs.  I get that you are still trying to get as much use as possible of the boxes you have.  What folks are trying to tell you is that more is not necessarily better.  Especially when mixing dissimilar boxes.  Sell the Yamahas and get some subs.  Even if they are old Peaveys or EV Force.  Put the 12's up over them.  That will give you the most sound with the least investment.
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2018, 01:03:17 PM »

When I use fills, I run them on a separate aux out and put primarily vocals and non-amplified instruments in them.  The stage wash of drums, bass and guitars needs no help close to the stage.  Their primary purpose is to fill in the short triangular area in front of the stage that gets missed by the mains.
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dave briar

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2018, 05:18:47 PM »

When I use fills, I run them on a separate aux out and put primarily vocals and non-amplified instruments in them.  The stage wash of drums, bass and guitars needs no help close to the stage.  Their primary purpose is to fill in the short triangular area in front of the stage that gets missed by the mains.
^^ this--simply said ^^
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Steve Garris

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2018, 04:13:46 PM »

^^ this--simply said ^^

Yep - what I said in post #9.
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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2018, 04:13:46 PM »


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