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[Nathan Riddle]

Hey Nathan, thanks for all your posts on this thread! 


For what it's worth, I know this has already been addressed nearly to death (trim versus preamp etc, so I'll provide a non-digital split story), but when I used to run a Mackie DL1608 mixer (preamps are the only non-remote controlled part of that otherwise all-remote mixer) they added a "trim" function in the app, after the preamp.  The first time I used it, was at a small duo gig in a highly reverberant hall where the DL1608 was at the side of the stage, and I was setting up monitor mixes with the iPad. 


I had run out of gain on one of my mix faders to satisfy the "more me" demand so I figured I'd save myself a trip to the mixer and just boost the channel trim so I could get more outputs on the mix without adjusting the preamp.  There was an extremely noticeable affect on SNR, like, unacceptably so.  IIRC it was like a 10dB boost, so I'm sure it's an extreme condition, but it happened nonetheless.  My original preamp setting was obviously too low, the rig wasn't mine, just the mixer, and the wedge sensitivities were much lower than I was accustomed to. 


Anyway, just an experience I thought I'd share.  Returning the trim to 0 position and increasing the preamp (analog, pre-DSP preamp) gain helped bring that noise back under control.  Turns out I should have just made the walk.  YMMV and all that.


Since that, I've never used trim for any other purpose than adjusting the level of a non-preamp derived input signal, but I think it's handy "to have and not need" than the other way around, especially today when we can have giant networked systems like never before and you may have a lot of non-preamp inputs on a relatively small system (dante enabled wireless mics for example, or a virtual sound check).

Hmm that's really interesting and weird. Digital trim shouldn't affect the snRatio at all. Being as it is digital it just boosts all of the level. Noise and signal should still have the same ratio.

As per the reason why a console goes down at FOH?

Besides the silly LD jokes 

I can easily imagine a power strip downline of the UPS (which is obviously on the board & FOH gear) getting tripped, bumped, moved or the IEC going into the board, etc.

Just miffed and annoyed that my sound system WILL be subjected to a gigantic boom/pop at some point in it's life. I'm also probably going to be buying the band new in-ears because it's going to blow a driver or two.

Yeah I'm being melodramatic.

[Jeremy Young]

This is an excellent expounding upon my original scenario.

As per price point? The cheap digital snake boxes for the qu have that feature.

There is no world in which 50$ in components doesn't make sense to put that feature in.

X32 paved the way for better products cheaper. SQ is an impressive board. But it's not quite the X32 killer we all wanted.

I hear what you're saying, and I'm admittedly not at all familiar with the QU series products.  Good to know.  Too bad that's not something you can update with firmware eh?


However.....(Pacino's back baby!) $50 over xxx,xxx products is a lot of margin for a company, and somewhere they have to draw a line on the spending.  There may also be a space issue involved since both the iLive mixrack and the QU mixracks are just that, mixracks, and the SQ also needs to house faders, touchscreens, etc.


I'm right there with you, If I worked for A&H and was involved in this product line, I would have been vouching to keep the relays, and to have a Dante sample rate converter like the DLive so it can be used with iLive and GLD products (and any other 48khz mixer on Dante) but hey we all have different priorities. 


I recently watched a documentary on the new Ford Mustang (2015's "A Faster Horse") where they discuss having to sign off on minor changes to things that cost pennies per car, and they make a point of running the numbers over the number of units sold.  Having no experience in product development, it was an eye opening moment for me.  I'll save you 90 minutes and spoil it: It adds up quick!

[Jeremy Young]

Hmm that's really interesting and weird. Digital trim shouldn't affect the snRatio at all. Being as it is digital it just boosts all of the level. Noise and signal should still have the same ratio.

My take is, the noise was already there but the level was too low to notice.  The preamp being analog, wasn't giving the ADC enough resolution to get all those ones and zeros, so when digitally boosted, it had a lot of low-level noise along with it.  Then again, budget mixer, bad gain staging, I could be connecting the invisible dots.

[Nathan Riddle]

My take is, the noise was already there but the level was too low to notice.  The preamp being analog, wasn't giving the ADC enough resolution to get all those ones and zeros, so when digitally boosted, it had a lot of low-level noise along with it.  Then again, budget mixer, bad gain staging, I could be connecting the invisible dots.

Methinks you're 'close' but I'm going to go a bit deeper and say I think it was: quantization noise/error giving a poor Signal-to-Quantization-Noise Ratio (SQNR) and thus when you boosted the digital side of things heard that error.

But I really have no idea. haha

[Nathan Riddle]

I'm right there with you, If I worked for A&H and was involved in this product line, I would have been vouching to keep the relays, and to have a Dante sample rate converter like the DLive so it can be used with iLive and GLD products (and any other 48khz mixer on Dante) but hey we all have different priorities. 

The Dante card will do this. I'm assuming you mean onboard?

[Jeremy Young]

To my limited understanding of Dante networks, the SQ is 96khz only, and the iLive/GLD products are 48khz only, and therefore they can exist on the same Dante network but cannot send any audio back and fourth. 

The DLive product series has a networking card adapter that allows a 48khz Dante card (or MADI, etc) to be installed in the 96khz DLive system which converts the sample rate, therefore allowing use of a GLD80 as a Monitor Mixer on a digital split for a DLive at FOH (for example).

Following along, to the best of my knowledge, this isn't an option on the SQ series.

I'd love to be wrong on this, but that's what I understand to be the case at the moment.

[Nathan Riddle]

To my limited understanding of Dante networks, the SQ is 96khz only, and the iLive/GLD products are 48khz only, and therefore they can exist on the same Dante network but cannot send any audio back and fourth. 

The DLive product series has a networking card adapter that allows a 48khz Dante card (or MADI, etc) to be installed in the 96khz DLive system which converts the sample rate, therefore allowing use of a GLD80 as a Monitor Mixer on a digital split for a DLive at FOH (for example).

Following along, to the best of my knowledge, this isn't an option on the SQ series.

I'd love to be wrong on this, but that's what I understand to be the case at the moment.

I believe the Dante & Waves sound-grid cards will be 96kHz and 48kHz switchable. At the very least they will run at 48kHz (does dante even do 96kHz?)

The SQ internally always runs @ 96kHz, but the dSnake & IO card will have to accept 48kHz inputs so it upconverts.

http://community.allen-heath.com/forums/topic/sq-me1-500-connectivity/#post-69092

http://community.allen-heath.com/forums/topic/sq-to-qu-connections/#post-68898

http://community.allen-heath.com/forums/topic/external-clocking

At least this is my current understanding.

[Mac Kerr]

I believe the Dante & Waves sound-grid cards will be 96kHz and 48kHz switchable. At the very least they will run at 48kHz (does dante even do 96kHz?)

Dante as a network transport protocol is sample rate agnostic. It can support the common rates from 48kHz to 192kHz, even multiple rates on the network simultaneously. Dante devices may or may not support multiple sample rates, and any device at a given sample rate can not communicate with another device at a different sample rate without SRC.

Mac

[Caleb Dueck]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement (totally possible since you're referring to a product that doesn't exist) but for the sake of clarity, neither the GLD nor the SQ series do processing in the mix rack. 


You're thinking of iLive and DLive products, in the A&H world anyway, where the DSP is in the mixrack and the surface is just an (optional) controller with local I/O.

In talking with the new A&H sales manager recently, I mentioned how there is still a gap between the small dLive and the SQ6.  It's the gap that the GLD still occupies, for an unknown future time frame.   

Since the iLive morphed into the dLive (processing in the stage rack) and Qu morphed into SQ (processing in the surface), the only one left is the GLD.  I don't think it makes sense for a potential "super-GLD" to be it's own family, but to also have a slightly stripped down dLive core.  Like the GLD, processing in the surface.  The easiest way to get there is a larger SQ surface with a few more faders (32), few more dedicated knobs, and slightly increased channel count (64).  Priced around $5-6k or wherever the M32 is priced currently.

I don't have any inside knowledge this time, this is just educated guessing. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

[Andrien (No Last Name)]

Dude, why did you let the Squint within 5 meters of your rack?  He's got his own damn electricity.

Well, there's always a volunteer multimedia person just 1 meter beside the mixer and racks here (and yes, they have kicked our ups down before). I think relay is to be expected on most mixer nowadays tho it is more of annoying than critical problem

In talking with the new A&H sales manager recently, I mentioned how there is still a gap between the small dLive and the SQ6.  It's the gap that the GLD still occupies, for an unknown future time frame.   

Since the iLive morphed into the dLive (processing in the stage rack) and Qu morphed into SQ (processing in the surface), the only one left is the GLD.  I don't think it makes sense for a potential "super-GLD" to be it's own family, but to also have a slightly stripped down dLive core.  Like the GLD, processing in the surface.  The easiest way to get there is a larger SQ surface with a few more faders (32), few more dedicated knobs, and slightly increased channel count (64).  Priced around $5-6k or wherever the M32 is priced currently.

I don't have any inside knowledge this time, this is just educated guessing. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Yes, we need update for GLD, especially the latest software update slow down the boot procedure to around 1-2min. I think another thing that's missing from GLD in SQ is Desktop Software.

[ProSoundWeb Community]