Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ryan Welsh]

Hello,

I am seeking an expert in large concert events, specifically an expert in lighting and in sound.  I know that doesn't seem very specific, however I am a person with no working knowledge trying to contact someone in the industry that may be able to offer advice on the capabilities of large-event technical operators. 

I am developing a security protocol for large events, and I was hoping that someone here would be available for me to pick their brain about some ideas that may seem out-of-the-ordinary to enhance security.  If anyone here is such an expert, or have contact information for someone with expertise in this field, I would greatly appreciate it!  I do not need heavy technical advice, more of a circumstantial idea that I am seeing if it is feasible.

Thank you very much, and I look forward to any help you may be able to offer!  Even if its directing me elsewhere.

Ryan

[Ray Aberle]

... you could try posting your questions/points of conversation, and we can group discuss it?

Just a thought.

-Ray

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

...

[Ryan Welsh]

... you could try posting your questions/points of conversation, and we can group discuss it?

Just a thought.

-Ray

OK, fair enough.  I am looking into the feasibility of utilizing the technology already in use during concerts to reduce the severity of active shooter incidents in concerts.  Honestly, many people are scrambling to figure out ways to respond quickly to events like the Bataclan, and I had a thought that it may be possible to at least disorient an attacker with stage lighting.  I've been on stage and know how much your vision is limited regarding the rest of the room, and I had the thought that a light engineer may be able to give me a better idea of what they may be able to do in the case of an event on the floor.

There will always be limitations, of course, like in vegas recently, but I am trying to think outside the box.

Let me know if anyone can advise, or if someone "knows a guy".  Thanks!

[Chris Hindle]

OK, fair enough.  I am looking into the feasibility of utilizing the technology already in use during concerts to reduce the severity of active shooter incidents in concerts.  Honestly, many people are scrambling to figure out ways to respond quickly to events like the Bataclan, and I had a thought that it may be possible to at least disorient an attacker with stage lighting.  I've been on stage and know how much your vision is limited regarding the rest of the room, and I had the thought that a light engineer may be able to give me a better idea of what they may be able to do in the case of an event on the floor.

There will always be limitations, of course, like in vegas recently, but I am trying to think outside the box.

Let me know if anyone can advise, or if someone "knows a guy".  Thanks!

They're called "Crowd Blinders". usually meant to "bump" to highlight a point.
Left on, they would disorient EVERYBODY for 3 or 4 seconds. I don't see that as helping.
Forget anything targeted (follow spot). You find and illuminate target, target shoots at light (and operator).
Chris (Audio guy, not a Lampy)

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

OK, fair enough.  I am looking into the feasibility of utilizing the technology already in use during concerts to reduce the severity of active shooter incidents in concerts.  Honestly, many people are scrambling to figure out ways to respond quickly to events like the Bataclan, and I had a thought that it may be possible to at least disorient an attacker with stage lighting.  I've been on stage and know how much your vision is limited regarding the rest of the room, and I had the thought that a light engineer may be able to give me a better idea of what they may be able to do in the case of an event on the floor.

There will always be limitations, of course, like in vegas recently, but I am trying to think outside the box.

Let me know if anyone can advise, or if someone "knows a guy".  Thanks!

Kudos to you for thinking about this - any progress would be great.

I think the flaw in your plan is one of time - by the time you have located the active shooter and the lighting tech (who is probably worried for his/her own life) starts moving fixtures in that direction the shooter is going to be done.  Even in the event that you got lights pointed at the shooter and strobed/blinded that person, they will still most likely be able to continue firing as a concert audience makes a large target, unlike in a personal attack situation where you have more room to get out of the attacker's fire.

The other challenge is the intentionally disorienting lights would disorient the people trying to get out of the way, too, so you may end up causing more harm than good as people trample each other.

[Tim McCulloch]

From my perspective as a production provider and representative of organized labor, there is no way I'd agree to use of stage lighting and/or personnel.

The off the top of my head reasons are responsibility and liability.  None of us are security or law enforcement personnel.  Who trains?  What if the lighting director or stage hand freaks out and freezes up?  Are they personally liable for subsequent deaths or injuries?  As the manager of a sound and lighting company, if the agreed-upon use of stage lighting failed, would my employer be liable?  What if the PA system stopped working because the FOH operator muted the system in order to draw attention to the situation and then didn't un-mute for emergency announcements?  I wouldn't expect any non-emergency personnel to stay on station in the circumstances you are trying to plan for.

Also, there are situations where a black out might be a better strategic decision than 100% lights on; who makes that decision?  Certainly I'd not want the band's LD, the provider's head tech or the stage hand head electrician making that call (see liability, above).

Emergency warning/evacuation/information systems tend to be stand-alone and probably should remain so.  The engineered use of temporary (event) sound and lights could be supplemental, but should not be considered primary.

Tim McCulloch
IATSE Local 190
Event Safety Alliance member

[John L Nobile]

Tim made an excellent point. Leave security to the pros.

The only direction that I can see security for large events going is strategically placed snipers. Trained pros would be able to quickly locate the shooter(s) and neutralize them.

Is this the road we're going on? I hope someone comes up with a better solution.

[Spenser Hamilton]

Following the Bataclan shooting, we had a conversation with local law enforcement. Two things that came out of the meeting were a) venue staff should follow our standard evacuation plan if it is safe to do so and b) local CIRT team (SWAT for people down south) needs to be prepared for taking on large venues.

Since then we've had a few training exercises in our venue, I've attended a few of the exercises and it was interesting to watch the team figure out how to approach such a large space.

Disclaimer: I am not an law enforcement expert, check with your local police service and get their advice.

[Ryan Welsh]

Certainly these are are excellent points, and have not been far from the top of my mind, but I was more curious about the capability rather than the execution. 

I actually have SWAT experience as a police officer, and I am working on out-of-the-box ideas for an insurance carrier seeking to find innovative ways to diminish loss of life in these events.  I should note that I am seeking this information based upon something I am brainstorming myself, not something this carrier is pursuing as a viable option.  I'm just spitballing here.

The light would be the first thing that will be shot at.  I was curious if systems exist to direct lights real-time at a shooter from a position that does not have personnel behind it (such as ceiling).  While I completely agree it will cause many issues, I am looking to identify those issues and see if theres a way to mitigate it.

Vegas is the perfect storm... there is nothing that can prevent it short of counter-sniper teams, and there is no way those are going to be deployed at large events.  In fact, due to the layout of the scene, there wouldn't have even been a good location for one to set up there.  A cheaper and more reasonable option is to start reinforcing the control rooms, however I literally have no frame of reference for what you guys do.  I don't know whats available to you and how stationary you would remain while working the board.  What I do know is that so many casualties occur so quickly, that I was looking for any kind of resistance that can be offered instantly to hinder the shooter in any way.  Killing the lights would leave all others unable to evacuate, but I know personally how much of a tactical advantage light can be.  I dont know how focused an operator can make the beam of light, but if a shooter can at least be blinded while shooting, then at least he can't take well-aimed shots.  Also, responders would have a fantastic tactical advantage when they do confront them. 

I cant think of any way sound can be used that wouldn't affect everyone else (other than maybe training someone on how to sound like police ordering them to the ground... maybe he'd pull the trigger on himself). 

So rather than discussing the problems with the idea (which are numerous and big), I was hoping to figure out what capabilities such a measure could offer.  If its worth trying to find a way around the issues with it, it could help!

[Randy Pence]

When I worked in nyc dance clubs, the bigger ones all had metal detectors.  The very, very large (hundreds of thousands of visitors) public events I'Ve been to in Berlin have had police stationed around and likely have beefier street entrance protections since the truck drive through the xmas market last year.

Not to get political, but there is an enormous elephant in the room and I doubt there will be a safe solution found with event lighting.  I mean, there are rfid tags which could help auto-aim the lights at a particular target, but my guess is that the shooter won't be wearing the right one. Perhaps everyone could be told at the door to put their fingers in their ears if a certain sound happens so the shooter won't know what happens next, but I have feeling that they will be too inebriated to follow along and the shooter will either be deaf or wearing hearing protection after the first few rounds are fired so as not to be affected by a sonic canon or something.

[Ryan Welsh]

The RFID tag is a neat technology, I wasn't aware of it.  But yes, there is no way that warning everyone to cover their ears is a suitable option, however if there is a mass casualty event, I'll bet people would rather deafness than death.  Still, not viable. 

How easy is it to kill all the lights at an event?  It struck me when I saw the sniper-view of the event that the lighting only served to illuminate the crowds, giving him the ability to target people that were taking cover.  Again, it would hinder people's evacuation to kill all the lights, but night vision would kick in eventually while the shooters vision would never improve.  Just spitballing here again.

This guy unfortunately overcame perimeter security, and I would nearly guarantee there were metal detectors at the entrance to that event. 

[Tim McCulloch]

Some things cannot be insured for, and a sniper 400 yards outside the security perimeter might be one of them.

I've been following active shooter situations that could relate to our industry for several years and I've yet to identify specific means of prevention or detection that would be acceptable to our industry or many others (hospitality, gaming, sporting events).  We put up with the TSA theatrics when traveling by commercial aviation because we have no options, but folks DO have an option to attend or not attend a concert, fair, game or event.  If security becomes too intrusive or inconvenient a significant number will stop attending, saying "hell, I can watch that on pay per view".

The Las Vegas attack was a perfect storm - a dedicated bad guy who spent lots of time planning and pulling off his carnage, in a venue that provided everything he needed - vantage point, access, lack of inquisitive security or house staff, and laws that favor the manner of killing he used.

I'm still thinking in terms of prevention, but what to do when something like this happens depends greatly on the specifics of the event and the nature of the attack, remembering that most members of the public have terrible situational awareness; watch the PD bodycam videos and hear festival goers argue with the cop that it's fireworks and part of the show... one of them basically to a cop to fuck off.  How do you protect people who do not perceive the threat?

You have multiple things to look at here:  evacuation or sheltering the public, detecting the source of fire, intervention of the shooter, etc.  You might want to take a look what little the Presidential Protection Detail of the Secret Service will say about site evaluations and response to immediate threat.  Some of the general principles are sure to apply.

[ProSoundWeb Community]