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Author Topic: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged  (Read 17924 times)

Robert Weaver

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Re: Gym speaker setup - Project Completed
« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2018, 10:36:26 pm »

The wiring in use is 10/3 SOOW wiring.  It's perfectly acceptable for this kind of use.  All it does is get power from the outlet to the sequencer.  The cord on the sequencer would be far more susceptible to damage. It's clamped to the rack to keep it from being pulled out.  The only reason the straps are there is to keep it near the wall and to further keep from pulling and stressing the wire.  It's technically not permanently attached as there is space around the strap and the wire.  It's there more to contain it.  Some might interpret it as permanently attached, but it's my opinion that it actually makes for a safer install than to leave it hanging loose.  I wanted to ability to unplug the equipment without having to open the rack.



"(H) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are designed to permit removal for maintenance and repair. [Emphasis added.]"

According to this the wire is perfectly acceptable for this use.  Take this thing off the wall and put wheels on it and nobody would seem to have a problem with it. It can be removed for repair or maintenance and not a permanent structure.  I think there is a lot of misinterpretation of the NEC in this post. However the latter would IMHO be more susceptible to damage as the frequent setup could prematurely wear our the wire and connections.  Nobody wold give the flexible wire a second thought with the second scenario.  One of the really irritating things about a forum like this is that "nobody does it the right way except for me".  I enjoy reading and learning in this forum, but it can be irritating at times. 
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Robert Weaver

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Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2018, 10:55:55 pm »

I'm not a rigger or an engineer, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. It's somewhat random thoughts, and genuine good engineering advice will be based on actual load calculations.

I don't like the way the chains are holding that up. I can't see detail well, but it doesn't look like welded chain. The links are not designed for side loading, which is what happens when you drape them over the purlin that way. Side loaded, it can cause the link to open. Secondly, it doesn't look like chain that's rated "for overhead lifting." Normally chain is rated with a safety factor of around 2:1 (I think) -- where the working load is half the breaking strength. For overhead lifting, you need about a 10:1 safety ratio: the working load rating is 1/10 the breaking strength.

I would expect to see a properly engineered support use welded chain rated for overhead lifting, cables, or steel rods. Any of these support materials would be longitudinally loaded; no side forces. The attachment to the purlin would be by means of a proper purlin clamp or holes drilled according to the engineer's specifications. Mounting eyes would be forged, closed eyes with specific ratings for side loading.

Properly rigging the speaker would be easy and not terribly expensive. The most expensive part of the process would be getting good design from a structural engineer or certified rigger.

I wasn't there. I don't know everything you do. It's just that, based on the pictures, it looks a little suspect.

The company that we ordered the mount from designs the rigging from the ceiling attachment to the speaker mount.  The only thing they don't design is the building and the speaker.  Everything else is sold as a complete kit.  Even down the safety wire for securing the shackle pins. The chain is Grade 100 welded chain rated for overhead lifting.  The engineer specified the chain over the purlin.  Apparently they specify this quite often. One of the reasons we went with this setup was to accommodate the joining of the two speaker modules.  The mounting brackets and connection brackets supplied by JBL were not up to my standards for this installation.  Probably would have been fine in an auditorium, but not for a gym. Everything was installed in accordance to their specifications. Like I said earlier this was a complete kit.  All of the hardware was forged Chicago Hardware.   
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Mounting JBL CBT 1000 in gymnasium
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2018, 12:01:20 am »

The company that we ordered the mount from designs the rigging from the ceiling attachment to the speaker mount.  The only thing they don't design is the building and the speaker.  Everything else is sold as a complete kit.  Even down the safety wire for securing the shackle pins. The chain is Grade 100 welded chain rated for overhead lifting.  The engineer specified the chain over the purlin.  Apparently they specify this quite often. One of the reasons we went with this setup was to accommodate the joining of the two speaker modules.  The mounting brackets and connection brackets supplied by JBL were not up to my standards for this installation.  Probably would have been fine in an auditorium, but not for a gym. Everything was installed in accordance to their specifications. Like I said earlier this was a complete kit.  All of the hardware was forged Chicago Hardware.   

I am happy to read this.

From the pictures you posted, it looked like a typical amateur install, and I didn't see anything to the contrary when I posted that. You might've said "it came from so-and-so" but there are a lot of so-and-sos out there that don't have a clue.

With a forum like this, an untrained person could come on here, see the photos, and try to replicate that with hardware store chain and fasteners, not knowing that it is actual engineered rigging with purpose-made hardware. By stating what you've said, you alleviate a lot of concern for doing things right.

Many people on this forum are concerned with doing things right and according to codes not to be pricks, but because they are genuinely concerned for safety and protecting you from legal liability.
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Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Scott Holtzman

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Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2018, 03:00:43 am »



"(H) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are designed to permit removal for maintenance and repair. [Emphasis added.]"

According to this the wire is perfectly acceptable for this use.  Take this thing off the wall and put wheels on it and nobody would seem to have a problem with it. It can be removed for repair or maintenance and not a permanent structure.  I think there is a lot of misinterpretation of the NEC in this post. However the latter would IMHO be more susceptible to damage as the frequent setup could prematurely wear our the wire and connections.  Nobody wold give the flexible wire a second thought with the second scenario.  One of the really irritating things about a forum like this is that "nobody does it the right way except for me".  I enjoy reading and learning in this forum, but it can be irritating at times.
Well that's your take.  I have speced and managed the installation of hundreds of network cabinets in countless school gyms and cafeteria's.  We had a national eRate SPIN code and never had to do a gig twice.  We put the UTP in one pipe and the power in another.  It's what the contract said, it's what the district wanted and the inspector never red tagged us. 

I hate to say it but the install doesn't look like a pro did it.  It is not sloppy or anything like that.

The bottom line is non-seasoned installers don't know how to bend pipe.  Pro's can put pipe up like no tomorrow and use the same THHN they pulled for everything else. 

I am not a rigger so I can't comment on that.

Sorry if the comments offended.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Robert Weaver

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Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2018, 10:13:37 am »

Well that's your take.  I have speced and managed the installation of hundreds of network cabinets in countless school gyms and cafeteria's.  We had a national eRate SPIN code and never had to do a gig twice.  We put the UTP in one pipe and the power in another.  It's what the contract said, it's what the district wanted and the inspector never red tagged us. 

I hate to say it but the install doesn't look like a pro did it.  It is not sloppy or anything like that.

The bottom line is non-seasoned installers don't know how to bend pipe.  Pro's can put pipe up like no tomorrow and use the same THHN they pulled for everything else. 

I am not a rigger so I can't comment on that.

Sorry if the comments offended.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Like I said earlier put wheels on it and set it on the ground and all of the sudden that wire “isn’t a problem”.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 10:32:08 am by Robert Weaver »
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Robert Weaver

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Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2018, 11:07:01 am »

Well that's your take.  I have speced and managed the installation of hundreds of network cabinets in countless school gyms and cafeteria's.  We had a national eRate SPIN code and never had to do a gig twice.  We put the UTP in one pipe and the power in another.  It's what the contract said, it's what the district wanted and the inspector never red tagged us. 

I hate to say it but the install doesn't look like a pro did it.  It is not sloppy or anything like that.

The bottom line is non-seasoned installers don't know how to bend pipe.  Pro's can put pipe up like no tomorrow and use the same THHN they pulled for everything else. 

I am not a rigger so I can't comment on that.

Sorry if the comments offended.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

We tried to bid out this project and nobody wanted it apparently.  The only one that contacted us back wanted to put in inadequate mid-grade home theatre components.  You can refer back to the original post for that disaster. We had to have an adequate system by Mid June for our VBS.  I took this project and managed it.  I had to subcontract some of the work.  All in all the install went fairly smooth.  Fortunately I had the time off to complete most of the work early on. 
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2018, 01:51:23 pm »

Like I said earlier put wheels on it and set it on the ground and all of the sudden that wire “isn’t a problem”.

Yes, that's true.  I don't see how it gives you lattitude to mount the cabinet and feed it the way you want.

There are common practices that are overkill and some that you wonder what they were thinking.  If I do things to code and common practice I have the best chance that 12 reasonable people will not find my actions negligent.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Robert Weaver

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Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2018, 05:01:41 pm »

Yes, that's true.  I don't see how it gives you lattitude to mount the cabinet and feed it the way you want.

There are common practices that are overkill and some that you wonder what they were thinking.  If I do things to code and common practice I have the best chance that 12 reasonable people will not find my actions negligent.

I called the electrician and asked about this specifically. When they installed the outlet the rack and equipment was already installed. They were well aware of the usage and placement.  I trust their judgment. At some point flexible wire will be used to supply power to the rack and equipment. It’s not like flexible wire was used to power an installed outlet.  I wasn’t about to modify the wire on the sequencer and void the warranty. There is no room for a plug inside the rack. The only other option was to create a flexible extension with proper plugs on each end.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2018, 10:55:01 pm »

You don't cut the cord you put a quad box inside the enclosure (the protected zone).

Most electricians have little datacomm or audio experience

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Robert Weaver

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Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2018, 02:04:29 pm »

You don't cut the cord you put a quad box inside the enclosure (the protected zone).

Most electricians have little datacomm or audio experience

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

I will call them back and see what needs to be done about it.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Gym Speaker Setup - Project Completed merged
« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2018, 02:04:29 pm »


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