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[Frank Koenig]

Here's me and my buddy having a what's-he-doing-now? moment behind the C2500. -F

[Bob Leonard]

Frank,
That looks like one of those "I'm doing a favor for my friend" type gigs. The ones with the good food, fun times, nice band, and great people. You know, the "freebee" you don't mind doing once or twice during the summer.

The real point is the flexibility of the modern small format mixer. Imagine that. From a day when it took 4 people and 6 roadies to carry front of house for a 1000 water bag gig, down to one (1) person, no external rack gear, and more expansion capability than almost any analog board in the day.

[Mike Pyle]

An automixer is coming in the next major release. I don't have an immediate need, but I'm looking forward to trying it.

Also in the next firmware will be the ability for 2 surfaces to share a single mixrack.

[Mal Brown]

I had a chance to audition a few boards in July and August of 2016.  I now own an Si Expression 3, an SI Expression 1 and the 32x12 stagebox.  The workflow is very old school.  The board just makes sense to me. The feature set fits what I need and the sound quality is fantastic.  Classic Soundcraft.  Warm, articulate, clear.

 For the cost of one of the monster boards, I can instead offer a side stage monitor position...  hopefully a discriminator for my little company.

[Spenser Hamilton]

We had a C3500 and CDM48 in the theatre for demo back in the spring. Great board, super powerful, very enjoyable to mix on. Rider acceptance wasn't there for us, so in the end we went the Digico route.

If riders aren't an issue, the D Live C Class is probably the best value in the industry at this moment.

[Frank Koenig]

Frank,
That looks like one of those "I'm doing a favor for my friend" type gigs. The ones with the good food, fun times, nice band, and great people. You know, the "freebee" you don't mind doing once or twice during the summer.

Bob, right on all counts. And this is really all I do -- it's not a business. This particular event was at the Beechwood School in Menlo Park. It's a small private school for less-advantaged K-8 kids in the neighborhood. The bands were two "dad bands", one led by my old friend and one member of which is on the school's board, and the other led by the school's headmaster, who totally rocked out -- good fun to see the principal out of context. We also had a hip-hop act, Team Zoe, two young men and a young woman rapping to tracks, who were an absolute delight. (At the risk of self congratulation, I think they were impressed by the ability and willingness of the old guy's subs to produce the beats. One of the two TH-118s walked about a foot away from its partner during that part of the show. But I digress.) Food was from two food trucks, which, in my opinion, is in multiple ways better than trying to get volunteers to cook burgers, etc. Amateur sound, professional food, I know

The real point is the flexibility of the modern small format mixer. Imagine that. From a day when it took 4 people and 6 roadies to carry front of house for a 1000 water bag gig, down to one (1) person, no external rack gear, and more expansion capability than almost any analog board in the day.

WRT modern mixers, yes, it's great to have all that capability without schlepping any outboard. All I usually have now is wireless mics and a CD/flash-drive player. My analog snake is enjoying its retirement in a fixed install.

--Frank

[Jeff Lelko]

Thanks for all the input so far!  I really appreciate everyone's time to contribute.  Let me try to address some of the comments and suggestions:

I'm not concerned with the "age" of the Performer series at all. It has all the features needed to do the job right, and being that they used Vi technology I don't see them being put on the back burner any time soon. The cost of the Performer 1 and the 32 input mini stage box will run you just under 6K new, and worth every penny.

You can see in Peters pictures that by selecting a channel on the Dlive options for the channel become available on the screen. With the Soundcraft boards, up to the Vi series, selecting a channel immediately assigns all of the knobs at the top of the board to that channel or output. The screen will reflect movement of those controls, show an EQ graph, etc. Unlike other boards, the Vi series and the dlive have large screens where the "knobs" live. But only Soundcraft has fader glow, and until you've used it you don't know what you're missing.

That's good to know that product age isn't such a concern here.  At the same time, I've been reading along to the Midas 10 year warranty thread and can't help but question if any such products would even be relevant in 10 years time.  Being more of a lighting guy, I know certain light consoles can really hold up well with proper care and many are used way past their useful life (ETC Express).  I'm glad to hear that this can prove true with sound as well.  I'd just hate to buy a big-ticket item only have it discontinued in a month!  At the same time, I'd like to get as much life as possible out of such an investment.  It'll be something I work with on every job, so it'll help to better justify the purchase of getting something I like to know it'll last quite a while.   

Now if I read the forums and manuals correctly, the Soundcraft SI Series cannot dasiy-chain stage boxes, right?  All the additional inputs and outputs that aren't on the stage box are accessed via option cards?  I do like the fader glow.  It really stood out to me when demoing the SI Impact!  I also like how it has a straightforward analog feel to it and you're not lost in the screen when trying to make adjustments.  Do you feel the input dB/signal meters show up well enough to be useful on the scribble strips?  I have to admit I prefer the LED-style such as on the dLive surfaces...

I agree that saving money on a console and putting your investment in speakers will provide a better return on investment.

You could also simply work with me on the gigs you need more than what you have, and save money and the headaches of owning excess inventory. I have a underutilized M32R, 32 channels of digital snakes, and a speaker system that would nicely cover the area in your speaker thread.

Irma stopped progress on my speaker system expansion since 9/11, (9 days without power sucks) but I'm back to it again- let's get together and discuss your plans in person!

 
Thanks Art, PM sent!

I'm not going to address the business aspects as I don't use my sound equipment in a business. Tim, as always, has given good advice. I did, however, get a CDM32 Mixrack and C2500 Surface last April and can talk about my experience. In short, I'm very happy with the system.

Thanks for sharing the picture Frank!  I have to admit that's a very nice looking console.  Not that looks affect function, but on the corporate end I've found that looks do help to justify why the sponsor has to pay so much for my services.  Again, not that this has any impact on sound quality, reliability, and overall customer service (which is really what they're paying for), but I digress. 

I agree with your logic on the 2500 vs the 1500, so let me add a few more details.  The three surfaces that I'm eyeing are the 1500, the 3500, and the S5000.  Here's why...  For small jobs (maybe 4 inputs) I don't want to haul along a massive console (why I have yet to give up my little Mackie).  I'd much prefer to either use the IP-8 with a laptop OR put that money towards the 1500.  Honestly I think I'd be happier with the 1500, but I'll get to that in a moment.  Either the 1500 or IP-8/Laptop option will easily fit on top of my Audiopile FOH rack and is an easy 1-person lift.  The 1500 (and any other surface) has a few onboard inputs that'd be perfect for plugging in my FOH media players.  Either option would fill the need for about 75% of my work.  I just won't have enough inputs or outputs to need anything more!  I do like having that break between inputs and outputs though as seen on the larger options.  For the other 25% of my work, I'd need (like) more faders and would really want the multiple fader banks, which is what draws my attention to the 3500 and S5000.  Having yet to see and touch either board, the attraction with the S5000 is more knobs and less reliance on the touch screens, but I might get over that via a demo.  Trying to stay on track here, it's really becoming a question of IP-8/Laptop and 3500 versus 1500 and rent 3500/S5000 as needed.  The cost difference between the 1500 and 3500 is small enough that it's not really a factor, but at the same time buying both isn't a feasible option to me.  I just don't want to purchase a 3500 and wish I got something smaller and lighter if I feel too confined by the IP-8/laptop.  I'm honestly not a huge fan of iPad mixing.  Though I'll tweek my rig while walking with the venue with my iPad I don't like mixing elusively on it.  The nice thing though is that if I buy the MixRack first I can always just play around with my laptop/iPad and see how I like it before buying a surface. 

So since I bring up the S5000, to Frank and the other dLive C Class users out there, what was the driving factor to going with the C Class product over the S Class?  Was it just cost and lack of need for the S Class features, or was it for the compact size?  Or something else?  Does the more frequent use of the touchscreen on the C Class compared to the S Class become an annoyance?  At least on my light consoles I much prefer to press buttons and turn encoders versus tapping and sliding. 

Also in the next firmware will be the ability for 2 surfaces to share a single mixrack.

Thanks Mike!  I actually read that somewhere...  So backing up to the 1500 versus 3500 or S5000, if I were to purchase the 1500 and then rent a larger surface for larger shows, would this new firmware allow me to delegate the 1500 to monitor duty?  Would I (or anyone else) even want to do that?

Again, I really appreciate all the input!
       

[Dave Garoutte]

Now if I read the forums and manuals correctly, the Soundcraft SI Series cannot dasiy-chain stage boxes, right?  All the additional inputs and outputs that aren't on the stage box are accessed via option cards?  I do like the fader glow.  It really stood out to me when demoing the SI Impact!  I also like how it has a straightforward analog feel to it and you're not lost in the screen when trying to make adjustments.  Do you feel the input dB/signal meters show up well enough to be useful on the scribble strips?  I have to admit I prefer the LED-style such as on the dLive surfaces...
     

The Soundcraft Performer and impact have two card slots, so you could run up to 64 outboard inputs, as well as all the local inputs up to 80.

I use an Ipad mini, on a little stand behind the console, running ViSi and just keep the (very responsive) meters on it.  Mobile mixing is on a full sized Ipad.

[Frank Koenig]

I have to admit that's a very nice looking console.  Not that looks affect function, but on the corporate end I've found that looks do help to justify why the sponsor has to pay so much for my services.  Again, not that this has any impact on sound quality, reliability, and overall customer service (which is really what they're paying for), but I digress.

Looks matter, to me at least. Especially when there are so many competitive products to choose from, why get something you think is ugly?

I agree with your logic on the 2500 vs the 1500, so let me add a few more details.  The three surfaces that I'm eyeing are the 1500, the 3500, and the S5000.  Here's why...  For small jobs (maybe 4 inputs) I don't want to haul along a massive console (why I have yet to give up my little Mackie).  I'd much prefer to either use the IP-8 with a laptop OR put that money towards the 1500.  Honestly I think I'd be happier with the 1500, but I'll get to that in a moment.  Either the 1500 or IP-8/Laptop option will easily fit on top of my Audiopile FOH rack and is an easy 1-person lift.  The 1500 (and any other surface) has a few onboard inputs that'd be perfect for plugging in my FOH media players.  Either option would fill the need for about 75% of my work.  I just won't have enough inputs or outputs to need anything more!  I do like having that break between inputs and outputs though as seen on the larger options.  For the other 25% of my work, I'd need (like) more faders and would really want the multiple fader banks, which is what draws my attention to the 3500 and S5000.  Having yet to see and touch either board, the attraction with the S5000 is more knobs and less reliance on the touch screens, but I might get over that via a demo.  Trying to stay on track here, it's really becoming a question of IP-8/Laptop and 3500 versus 1500 and rent 3500/S5000 as needed.  The cost difference between the 1500 and 3500 is small enough that it's not really a factor, but at the same time buying both isn't a feasible option to me.  I just don't want to purchase a 3500 and wish I got something smaller and lighter if I feel too confined by the IP-8/laptop.  I'm honestly not a huge fan of iPad mixing.  Though I'll tweek my rig while walking with the venue with my iPad I don't like mixing elusively on it.  The nice thing though is that if I buy the MixRack first I can always just play around with my laptop/iPad and see how I like it before buying a surface.

It sounds like you have considered the use cases and alternatives thoroughly. I, too, am not wild about iPad mixing, although I've done it. For bands it's a lot to handle on a small screen and for talking heads/playback, where the input count is small but the stakes are high, it makes me nervous that I'll fat-finger a fader and cause feedback, etc. I also have trouble seeing the screen in full sun, especially after the finger prints build up.

So since I bring up the S5000, to Frank and the other dLive C Class users out there, what was the driving factor to going with the C Class product over the S Class?  Was it just cost and lack of need for the S Class features, or was it for the compact size?  Or something else?  Does the more frequent use of the touchscreen on the C Class compared to the S Class become an annoyance?  At least on my light consoles I much prefer to press buttons and turn encoders versus tapping and sliding.

 

I went with the C class as it is the least expensive entry into dLive, and I was already feeling guilty spending so much on what is, for me, essentially a toy. I'm also not convinced that redundant power supplies adds as much system redundancy as on a traditional analog console, on which all the channel strips and masters are pretty independent modules and one failing doesn't take down the others. That leaves the power supply as the single point of failure that can kill the whole board and a spare makes a lot of sense. On a modern mixer such as dLive there are a bunch of independent mic pres and ADCs, but then everything goes into a big DSP block. If that fails you're screwed, too. So redundant supplies help, but, from my point of view, don't provide complete redundancy as in an analog desk.

I'll add that I think A&H's marketing strategy is great. (And they may not be alone in this regard.) Develop a pro-level system that competes at the top of the market. Price it accordingly. Then release a family of products that share everything but a few features that the pros insist on (such as redundant supplies), but at a substantially lower price. Wannabes, like me, will succumb to their vanity and stretch to buy the lower price system (when a brand B, for example, would suffice) feeling that we bought a "true pro-level" system. And I bet they get more revenue from the C-series than from the top end.

On C1500 vs C2500, I compared the differences in price, weight, and width, all of which are modest increments, and ended up with the C2500, even though when I started shopping mixers I was sure I wanted a "rack mount" (narrow) surface.

--Frank

[Art Nadelman]

I wanted the S5000.  Coming from the A&H GLD side where I much preferred the 3 banks of faders on the GLD-112 over the 2 banks on the GLD-80, I knew that I had to have the S5000.  I spent hours and hours looking at all of them at this year's NAMM show.  What did I end up with?

The C1500.

I don't regret it in the least.  The fader banks are quick to maneuver through.  I have them logically laid out.  There are a few features of the S Class that I wish were in the the C Class, but the price difference ruled the day.  I did add an IP-8 for use with both the console and dLive Director in small venues.  But I do enjoy running these mixers on a Microsoft Surface Pro 4, and will even suffer running them on an iPad (not their best app).

I can't believe that I went with a system with only 12 faders in its banks.  But I'm thrilled that I did!

[ProSoundWeb Community]