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Author Topic: passive double 18s?  (Read 7723 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2017, 10:23:07 pm »

Do you not know what RMS is?

Its not peak.

Its not continuous.

Its its own rating.

RMS Power Ratings: The RMS power rating is the measure of continuous power that an amplifier can output, or a speaker can handle. RMS power is derived from Root Mean Square which is a statistical measurement of the magnitude of a varying quantity and is applied to voltage or current.

I didn't come here to educate you on something you didn't know about btw, I stated I wanted that so I could easily chain them into the rest of my sound system without having to deal with different power ratings, I could chain them off the same amps I'm already using for my 1000w rms cabs (thats not peak or continuous for those who cant read)
NO.

The power rating is for a particular shaped waveform for a specific period of time.

NOT any signal 24/7
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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Jay Barracato

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2017, 12:33:15 am »

Build a Welter keystone and be done with it.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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Jay Barracato

Tim McCulloch

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2017, 01:13:57 am »

Build a Welter keystone and be done with it.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Why bring a sensible answer to this organ-comparing contest?  Popcorn, anyone?
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Jay Barracato

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2017, 01:50:17 am »

Why bring a sensible answer to this organ-comparing contest?  Popcorn, anyone?
I was hoping he would tell Art about speaker design as well.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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Jay Barracato

Scott Holtzman

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2017, 02:07:25 am »

I was hoping he would tell Art about speaker design as well.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Or perhaps school Ivan in power ratings?  Tim spoils all the fun, and on my weekend off too.  Damn now what am I going to do with myself?

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Mike Spade

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2017, 03:40:47 am »

Hi Mike,

Years ago, I worked for a very good sound tech who was quite good with woodwork and speaker re-coning.  His A-rig consisted of 100% home-built cabinets.  The subwoofers were based loosely on the JBL SR4719X (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/SR-X%20Series/SR4719X.pdf) using some drivers he bought in bulk from china and then subsequently re-coned himself using JBL kits.  The primary difference in cabinet design was that he reversed the height and depth dimensions so they were a little lower than the JBL design.  We ran them (4-ohm per cabinet) stereo on Crest CA9's for amplification and coated them with truck-bed-liner. 

The tops were loosely based on the dimensions of an EV QRX115/75 except they used 15" JBL (actual JBL) mids and BMS coax horns and had different handles.  The rig was tri-amped and he came up with the DBX Driverack settings himself. 

He did blow drivers under what I would consider "normal" conditions, so I don't know whether it was to do with his settings or the particular combination of driver/cabinet, or if it was a failure of his re-cone customization.  He customized my EVM12L guitar speakers and got rid of the shrill-ness, but his approaches were more "guess and test" than the type of engineering that is possible today in a speaker manufacturing lab.

The design for the tops was sent to a CNC shop to cut all the panels in volume (made 16 at once) and then he painstakingly assembled them himself.  It was a lot of work (unpaid time) for him to build it all, and in the end it was tough for him to get it earning for him.

He has passed away now, and I believe all of that gear is in a bowling alley somewhere now.  After he passed, it was hard to get more than the component value second-hand from anyone for the gear, which was unfortunate for the family he left behind.  Whenever he tried to book shows with "well known" touring acts, he had to try very hard for the tour manager to accept his equipment since it wasn't a "known value" that they were accustomed to.  Sometimes they bit, sometimes they went to another provider.

He was lucky in that he had an excellent ear, so he made great mixes on just about anything, and could tune fairly well without anything but his voice and an SM58, but knowing what I know today I can tell you that there was a lot of room for improvement in the sound of the rig.  Also, cross-renting to other providers was nearly impossible, nor could we supplement our rig from theirs if needed, which can be important if you live in a geographically isolated area like me.

Where I'm going with this, is that when it came time for me to "get back in the game" and acquire my own hire-rig, I elected to buy pre-built equipment with known performance values and customer support.    I have found this to be very helpful in booking shows, finding replacement parts, and being able to contact the manufacturers of the "systems" (cabinet and drivers) for advice on amplifier selection, crossover points, limiter settings, etc.  I have spent considerable money, but would do it all over again if I had to.  If I break my back tomorrow, I know I can at least get a reasonable return on my gear second-hand if it comes to that.  YMMV.


As for the legal implications of what he did with others' designs, I can't speak to that but there are many on these forums who are more experienced with those sorts of copyright issues.

I'm no cabinet builder myself (I have an irrational fear of losing a finger on a saw and only ever being able to play Black Sabbath guitar riffs for the rest of my life). What is it that you didn't like about the 18-sound cabinet designs?  Have you seen the B&C cabinet designs?  http://www.bcspeakers.com/resources/suggested-designs/

Thanks for joining me for a civil conversation unlike the rest of the folks posting here.

Up till this point I've been using mainly yorkville equipment and while its been great for the exact reasons your saying (as in I agree with you) I am at the point now where I'd like some better subs then what I can buy locally, meaning I wouldn't be able to get local service or warranty.

Now the point you made about bands wanting to work on a known system is a pretty valid point, however I don't deal with bands, ever, mainly EDM so I'm not trying to rent out my sound system to other bands, this is 100% for personal use to use with my friends for my yearly birthday party and to practice at home (I'm also a scratch dj, not one of those midi laptop djs)

So I mean I agree with alot of your points.. However I think the main disagreement here is that as a carpenter I think I can build these cabs and save myself a ton of money... However I still want cabs that are known to be solid (I don't want to build crap like your friend lol) so thats why I'm looking around at what builds I could alternatively check out.. since as it sits atm I was thinking about just making more sw-1000's, they are okay but admittedly they don't have that bass feel I want 10 feet or more away, they sound great, just don't have that low end rumble that I would expect out of something like a pair of eaw sb1000's or ookpik sw218-c's (prettymuch the same thing minus the center port)

Build a Welter keystone and be done with it.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Thanks for joining the discussion by bring'n something constructive to the table unlike the others posting here.

I checked it out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVP93h0WfT8

Not really a fan of horn paths honestly, I like to be able to see my drivers.

I've had folded horns in the past and while they go plenty low, they seem to change the way the note sounds from how its written in the actual bit of music, has distortion and delay ratios I'm not happy with either.

Really like bass reflex for EDM but the manifolded bandpass has really caught my eye as well when I hear sound techs speak about feeling bass 75-100 feet away.. you don't get that with my sw-1000's.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 03:49:56 am by Mike Spade »
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Art Welter

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2017, 11:51:14 am »



1)I checked it out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVP93h0WfT8

2)Not really a fan of horn paths honestly, I like to be able to see my drivers.

3)I've had folded horns in the past and while they go plenty low, they seem to change the way the note sounds from how its written in the actual bit of music, has distortion and delay ratios I'm not happy with either.

4)Really like bass reflex for EDM but the manifolded bandpass has really caught my eye as well when I hear sound techs speak about feeling bass 75-100 feet away.. you don't get that with my sw-1000's.
MIke,

1) The video is not really "checking it out", the DIY thread has the information, and actual test results and personal comparisons to other cabinets.
2) The driver is visible in the Keystone if you don't use a grill cloth.
3) The top cabinets need to be delayed by around the path length in any horn loaded system, or the  bass will lack "punch". The Keystone has less distortion than a bass reflex for a given output, though since on average it puts out 6 dB more SPL, it has slightly more distortion when driven to full output.
4) With a pair of Keystones you can feel bass at 100 feet 6 dB louder than with a pair of BR cabinets, or the same as four BR cabinets using twice the power.

Bandpass cabinets can approach the sensitivity of a horn over their limited bandwidth, but will "change the way the note sounds from how its written in the actual bit of music" a lot more, the rapid phase change at the BP is less forgiving in crossover alignment than any other design.

I was in the process of building six Keystone B-Low (they will be flat to below the low B, 31 Hz, the standard Keystone rolls off below 36 Hz) when hurricane Irma hit and knocked out power, been running my freezer for the last week on solar power, only have enough juice to power up the cable modem to get on line once a day.

It is frustrating, bought the plywood last year just before hurricane Matthew, took until last week to get time to start the build, then no power again just after finishing cutting all the parts, and rounding all the corners. I probably would have finished testing a pair by now if not dealing with Irma.

Cheers,
Art
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2017, 12:29:03 pm »

Thanks for joining me for a civil conversation unlike the rest of the folks posting here.

Mike, the reason you haven't received a 'straight' answer is that you haven't shown an ounce of humility or respect.

You walked into our house and demanded we play by your rules. Sorry bub, but that's not how things work around here.

Come in, sit down, take your shoes off, and LISTEN before you speak, you were given two ears and one mouth so you should listen twice as much as speaking. Don't start mouthing off to the experts in the field about how you're not getting your way.

This is a fantastic community, one of the main reasons is because the community here won't just give you the answer you want; they want to understand why you want what you want. This is so you don't get a simple answer for a complex problem that ends up being WRONG (thanks, Ivan). Meaning you just wasted 20+hrs of your time building a cabinet that won't solve your problems because it doesn't match up with your current system's phase response.

There are plenty of excellent speaker builders around here and they probably haven't poked their head in here because you seem to lack the initiative to learn just a few cents worth of knowledge to help you and your situation out.

You want the simple wrong answer? Build any bass reflex cabinet's plans you can find off the internet and put any 1kw RMS rated driver in the cabinet. You have new subs that can handle 1000w RMS.

I didn't say what frequency range they would survive that 1000w RMS (which is not really RMS like you think), if they would sound good (which doesn't matter to you because bass reflex sounds good), what their phase response would be, if they would marry well to your current speakers/system, etc.

Want a sorta right answer? Replace your entire system with the Keystone subs. You'll have fewer speakers, louder speakers, better sounding speakers, and >2kw speakers (yay!)
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Riley Casey

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2017, 05:30:02 pm »

I suspect that at this point, having sneered at virtually everyone who has responded to your posts it might be time to try another forum and avoid insulting the forum members there if anyone calls you out on the merits of copying other people's intellectual property. Maybe try leading with a question that goes directly to existing open designs or such.

Scott Holtzman

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Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2017, 05:47:40 pm »

Mike, the reason you haven't received a 'straight' answer is that you haven't shown an ounce of humility or respect.

You walked into our house and demanded we play by your rules. Sorry bub, but that's not how things work around here.

Come in, sit down, take your shoes off, and LISTEN before you speak, you were given two ears and one mouth so you should listen twice as much as speaking. Don't start mouthing off to the experts in the field about how you're not getting your way.

This is a fantastic community, one of the main reasons is because the community here won't just give you the answer you want; they want to understand why you want what you want. This is so you don't get a simple answer for a complex problem that ends up being WRONG (thanks, Ivan). Meaning you just wasted 20+hrs of your time building a cabinet that won't solve your problems because it doesn't match up with your current system's phase response.

There are plenty of excellent speaker builders around here and they probably haven't poked their head in here because you seem to lack the initiative to learn just a few cents worth of knowledge to help you and your situation out.

You want the simple wrong answer? Build any bass reflex cabinet's plans you can find off the internet and put any 1kw RMS rated driver in the cabinet. You have new subs that can handle 1000w RMS.

I didn't say what frequency range they would survive that 1000w RMS (which is not really RMS like you think), if they would sound good (which doesn't matter to you because bass reflex sounds good), what their phase response would be, if they would marry well to your current speakers/system, etc.

Want a sorta right answer? Replace your entire system with the Keystone subs. You'll have fewer speakers, louder speakers, better sounding speakers, and >2kw speakers (yay!)

Yeah, I am sure the funs over.   As I reread my behavior on this thread I have to wonder at what point does it rise to the point of bullying when you beat up the unarmed? 
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: passive double 18s?
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2017, 05:47:40 pm »


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