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Author Topic: Pete , Henry can you help me with this  (Read 2979 times)

Thomas Lamb

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Pete , Henry can you help me with this
« on: September 04, 2017, 12:33:34 pm »

I'm on another FB group and have a guy saying.

"If you only need a distance of under 100m then there are GREAT chinese packs on ebay for 50-60 bucks.  People like to whine on here and say they are 100% ILLEGAL, but as I can read the same page that says the frequencies are illegal also states it's only for equipment with a normal range of over 100m...these packs are rated at 50m.  I also called the MAN himself...  FCC office in Washington because our church and MANY others also use these....  I was told the same thing on the phone.  There is NO issue because (the freq is used by a few US emergency / public service departments...though less and less as they are totally changing THEIR frequencies to better ones) there would have to be one of the few departments that use those 6 frequencies sitting right outside your church and trying to use their radios at that same time you are using yours.   Again, FCC gentleman said they are fine...thus the reason MANY companies and people sell them LEGALLY in the USA.  :)   BTW, the units are fantastic!!  Last and last and they barely touch the batteries.  I use mine about 10 hours a week and I have not changed my batteries in 3 months at least.  Get you a $20 pair of earbuds on ebay as well and you will be quite happy.  Search:  Takstar. Now let the hate begin!!  :)"

"Thomas Lamb call the fcc yourself.  The information also appears on their website. The page link has been posted many times by many people in this group.  The information about illegal frequencies is for devices rated at transmission range of 100 meters or more. So your assertion is they lie on their federal website and on the phone..  Well, it is the U.S. government.  Lol"

Can you speak into this please?
T
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"If you suck on a functional analog desk, you'll really suck on a complex digital desk...." Dick Rees

Keith Broughton

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Re: Pete , Henry can you help me with this
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 12:55:36 pm »

just to add more info to the question, here is an excerpt of some specs...

Operating Range: 50m
Transmit Power: <10mW
Frequency Range: 740MHz-790MHz

I'm not sure how they determine the range to be 50 meters.
TX power shows as "less than" 10 mW...what is it actually?
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Pete Erskine

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Re: Pete , Henry can you help me with this
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 02:00:10 pm »

I'm on another FB group and have a guy saying.

"If you only need a distance of under 100m then there are GREAT chinese packs on ebay for 50-60 bucks. 

send a link for this equipment
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Thomas Lamb

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bigTlamb

"If you suck on a functional analog desk, you'll really suck on a complex digital desk...." Dick Rees

Pete Erskine

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Re: Pete , Henry can you help me with this
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 03:21:10 pm »

1. It does not appear to be type approved for use in the USA and thus cannot be legally used.
2. It looks like a cheep POS.
3. It's not about frequency only.
4. I'd be VERY surprised if IRL this would transmit further than 25' reliabily
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 03:23:53 pm by Pete Erskine »
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Henry Cohen

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Re: Pete , Henry can you help me with this
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 09:58:35 pm »

I'm on another FB group and have a guy saying.

"If you only need a distance of under 100m then there are GREAT chinese packs on ebay for 50-60 bucks.  People like to whine on here and say they are 100% ILLEGAL, but as I can read the same page that says the frequencies are illegal also states it's only for equipment with a normal range of over 100m...these packs are rated at 50m.  I also called the MAN himself...  FCC office in Washington because our church and MANY others also use these....  I was told the same thing on the phone.  There is NO issue because (the freq is used by a few US emergency / public service departments...though less and less as they are totally changing THEIR frequencies to better ones) there would have to be one of the few departments that use those 6 frequencies sitting right outside your church and trying to use their radios at that same time you are using yours.   Again, FCC gentleman said they are fine...thus the reason MANY companies and people sell them LEGALLY in the USA.  :)   BTW, the units are fantastic!!  Last and last and they barely touch the batteries.  I use mine about 10 hours a week and I have not changed my batteries in 3 months at least.  Get you a $20 pair of earbuds on ebay as well and you will be quite happy.  Search:  Takstar. Now let the hate begin!!  :)"

"Thomas Lamb call the fcc yourself.  The information also appears on their website. The page link has been posted many times by many people in this group.  The information about illegal frequencies is for devices rated at transmission range of 100 meters or more. So your assertion is they lie on their federal website and on the phone..  Well, it is the U.S. government.  Lol"

Can you speak into this please?


Well, he did use two paragraphs, so I'll give him a bit of credit.

Where to start . . . First, and this is indeed most unfortunate, FCC is notorius for their frontline folk giving blatantly wrong advice to consumers when they call in with technical inquiries. These FCC people really don't know the complexity of the rules and regulations. To be fair though, I would like to know exactly how this FB person who called in phrased the question, and what words were used when they were speaking to the FCC person. To prove this point, the next time this person calls the FCC, have them ask the FCC person
  1) Their name or other employee identifier;
  2) Is the information they are about to provide legally/statutorily binding and can it be taken as formal interpretation by the Commission?
  3) Will they put #2 and the advice given in writing [and send it to the consumer]?

If the answers to 2) and 3) are not "no", I will personally buy the fellow all the channels of Axient Digital he wants, along with the antennas and coax and I will come to set it up.

I would like very much to see the link to "The information also appears on their website. The page link has been posted many times . . ." I suspect he might be referring to one of the informational pages for wireless microphones - which are not the technical rules or a formal interpretation, and thus not statutorily binding - but nowhere do I see anything that could be interpreted in the way this fellow does.

Secondly, discounting an unknown conversation with FCC of dubious nature, let's look at the other issues at hand. Presuming this fellow (sexist assumption on my part) operates under Title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations (Telecommunications), Part 15 unlicensed rules, let's look at those, along with the other rules Parts that govern radio transmissions by intentional radiators.

Part 2(I) Marketing of Radio Frequency Devices and 2.1204(a)(1) Import Conditions states that for devices subject to certification, that they have in fact been authorized and labeled by the OEM as such. In other words, it needs to have been sent to an FCC certified lab, tested, passed, and issued an FCC ID number (2.803(b)(1)). 15.201(b) explicitly states intentional radiators require certification/authorization. According to the FCC OET Equipment Authorization database, Takstar has no authorizations for equipment operating in 700MHz. Thus their 700MHz wireless system sold online can not be legally sold or used in the US without an experimental STA or other waiver.

But looking at this further, we see that the rules preclude this piece of equipment from being eligible for certification under Part 15 (or Part 74(H)) because there is no Part 15 allocation in the 700MHz band (2.106 Table of Frequency Allocations), thus there are no further technical rules regarding operations in this band for Part 15 devices.

Finally, a review of any of the technical rules for conducted emissions limits for intentional radiators in any service or band will show the conducted emissions limits are specified by RF power (power at the device's antenna connector), effective radiated power (calculated power leaving the antenna) or field strength (microvolts/meter at 3 or 10 meters); nowhere in the technical rules is an operational distance used as the metric for permissible operations.

In short, this fellow is just wrong. If he insists on putting his church's funds and reputation at risk, I strongly recommend he first speak with experienced telecommunications counsel (I can recommend several firms and attorneys). Interfering with public safety systems will bring out an Enforcement Bureau "tiger team" rather quickly and incur the wrath of the commission. Interfering with a Part 27 licensee (the LTE operator) will get you a visit from their RF troubleshooting team and a nasty letter from their counsel, cc'ing the FCC.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 10:01:16 pm by Henry Cohen »
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Russell Ault

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Re: Pete , Henry can you help me with this
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2017, 03:52:07 am »

FCC is notorius for their frontline folk giving blatantly wrong advice to consumers when they call in with technical inquiries.

That should be pinned somewhere. That's really good to know. Also terrifying.

-Russ
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Thomas Lamb

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Re: Pete , Henry can you help me with this
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2017, 01:39:15 pm »


Well, he did use two paragraphs, so I'll give him a bit of credit.

Where to start . . . First, and this is indeed most unfortunate, FCC is notorius for their frontline folk giving blatantly wrong advice to consumers when they call in with technical inquiries. These FCC people really don't know the complexity of the rules and regulations. To be fair though, I would like to know exactly how this FB person who called in phrased the question, and what words were used when they were speaking to the FCC person. To prove this point, the next time this person calls the FCC, have them ask the FCC person
  1) Their name or other employee identifier;
  2) Is the information they are about to provide legally/statutorily binding and can it be taken as formal interpretation by the Commission?
  3) Will they put #2 and the advice given in writing [and send it to the consumer]?

If the answers to 2) and 3) are not "no", I will personally buy the fellow all the channels of Axient Digital he wants, along with the antennas and coax and I will come to set it up.

I would like very much to see the link to "The information also appears on their website. The page link has been posted many times . . ." I suspect he might be referring to one of the informational pages for wireless microphones - which are not the technical rules or a formal interpretation, and thus not statutorily binding - but nowhere do I see anything that could be interpreted in the way this fellow does.

Secondly, discounting an unknown conversation with FCC of dubious nature, let's look at the other issues at hand. Presuming this fellow (sexist assumption on my part) operates under Title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations (Telecommunications), Part 15 unlicensed rules, let's look at those, along with the other rules Parts that govern radio transmissions by intentional radiators.

Part 2(I) Marketing of Radio Frequency Devices and 2.1204(a)(1) Import Conditions states that for devices subject to certification, that they have in fact been authorized and labeled by the OEM as such. In other words, it needs to have been sent to an FCC certified lab, tested, passed, and issued an FCC ID number (2.803(b)(1)). 15.201(b) explicitly states intentional radiators require certification/authorization. According to the FCC OET Equipment Authorization database, Takstar has no authorizations for equipment operating in 700MHz. Thus their 700MHz wireless system sold online can not be legally sold or used in the US without an experimental STA or other waiver.

But looking at this further, we see that the rules preclude this piece of equipment from being eligible for certification under Part 15 (or Part 74(H)) because there is no Part 15 allocation in the 700MHz band (2.106 Table of Frequency Allocations), thus there are no further technical rules regarding operations in this band for Part 15 devices.

Finally, a review of any of the technical rules for conducted emissions limits for intentional radiators in any service or band will show the conducted emissions limits are specified by RF power (power at the device's antenna connector), effective radiated power (calculated power leaving the antenna) or field strength (microvolts/meter at 3 or 10 meters); nowhere in the technical rules is an operational distance used as the metric for permissible operations.

In short, this fellow is just wrong. If he insists on putting his church's funds and reputation at risk, I strongly recommend he first speak with experienced telecommunications counsel (I can recommend several firms and attorneys). Interfering with public safety systems will bring out an Enforcement Bureau "tiger team" rather quickly and incur the wrath of the commission. Interfering with a Part 27 licensee (the LTE operator) will get you a visit from their RF troubleshooting team and a nasty letter from their counsel, cc'ing the FCC.

Henry,
Thank you for your reply. And the statement was from two different posts otherwise I'm not sure you would have gotten 2 paragraphs.

This is what I believe to be the information they are pulling from.

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/operation-wireless-microphones
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bigTlamb

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Henry Cohen

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Re: Pete , Henry can you help me with this
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2017, 05:07:23 pm »

This is what I believe to be the information they are pulling from.

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/operation-wireless-microphones

What part of  "Prohibition on use of the 700 MHz band: In 2010, the FCC prohibited the use of wireless mics and devices on unused broadcast channels on the 600 MHz service band and on the 700 MHz band specifically the frequencies between 698 and 806 MHz. It did so because such use could cause harmful interference that disrupts or degrades communications in the spectrum bands that had been repurposed for use by public-safety networks and licensed commercial wireless services",  and  "Failure to comply with FCC rules by unlawfully operating wireless mics or devices in the 600 and 700 spectrum bands may result in fines or additional criminal penalties"  does he not understand?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 05:12:00 pm by Henry Cohen »
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Henry Cohen

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Pete , Henry can you help me with this
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2017, 05:07:23 pm »


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